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Started By
Message
Recent discussion of DAO hammerless ccw
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:00 pm
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:00 pm
I received some excellent feedback from bapple, downshift, acemidnight, and several other obers. I post but im merely a peasant in the land O OB. I appreciate the advice and intel.
Im leaning towards ruger klcr. However today at a gun shop the owner down sells me on the .357 talking about over penetration etc. i explained i currently carry G23 .40 and my main conern is recoil from .357. Im very comfortable with pop of G23 amd i was told its similar to .357 loads.
The liability of over penetration and hitting other people in a self defense situation with pass through.
Help me out. I only want for ccw and one day will be wifes ccw in purse in .38 but in meantime i was thinking .357 would suit me better.
Thoughts?
TIA
Im leaning towards ruger klcr. However today at a gun shop the owner down sells me on the .357 talking about over penetration etc. i explained i currently carry G23 .40 and my main conern is recoil from .357. Im very comfortable with pop of G23 amd i was told its similar to .357 loads.
The liability of over penetration and hitting other people in a self defense situation with pass through.
Help me out. I only want for ccw and one day will be wifes ccw in purse in .38 but in meantime i was thinking .357 would suit me better.
Thoughts?
TIA
7
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:05 pm to rattlebucket
The recoil on a 357 isn't that bad. You've come from shooting a 23 which is snappy, but the recoil on a 357 isn't much more IMO. I think you'll like the lcr but also look at the gp101. It's not hammerless but a really good ccw six shooter,
This post was edited on 2/6/13 at 7:06 pm
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:07 pm to JAB528
I am concerned with the over penetration argument. Obviously i'd be loaded with hp so perhaps the owner was referring to fmj??
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:10 pm to rattlebucket
I don't think over penetration is that big of a concern, with hollow points I'm far from a 357 expert though. Downshift and bapple will be able to go more in depth. 
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:14 pm to JAB528
And just fyi not looking for litigious free advice
I shot a snub nose .357 years ago and what i recall is that the recoil seemed fine. However i dont remember the specific differences in my g23 and the .357
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:16 pm to rattlebucket
I have a 23 and my uncle has a snub nose 357 not too much more recoil. 
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:23 pm to JAB528
Thank u for the info from the lower caste of the OB, jabs
Posted on 2/6/13 at 7:24 pm to rattlebucket
Posted on 2/7/13 at 12:06 am to rattlebucket
Rattlebucket,
You've posed some good questions. Although I own a number of snub nose 38 Spec revolvers, I'll admit I've never owned a 357 Mag snub nosed revolver and don't expect I ever will. For an adequately trained shooter, both the 357 Mag and the snub nose revovler are good self defense guns. OTOH, I don't think a snub nose revolver in 357 Mag is the best choice for most shooters; I think the 38 Spec +P is the better choice. The issue w/ the snub nose 357 Mag is recoil, especially it's effect on subsequent shots.
In a really light revolver like the Ruger LCR, the 357 Mag will have heavy recoil. The main problem w/ the recoil is how much it will slow down adequately aimed and effective shots. No, the recoil is not so bad that you'll throw the gun down, but can you control it well enough to get a quick follow up shot on target? In addition, by the time you've cut the barrel on a snub nose to 2" or so, the difference in velocity between the 357 Mag and 38 Spec +P has narrowed considerably.
I find Massad Ayoob's writings very informative. Comparing the full size funs in 357 Mag and 38 Spec, he said, "Recoil, however, is substanitailly greater--usually more than the novice can handle...I don't recommend the 357 for untrained civilians." On the topic of snub nosed 357 Mags, he said, "These are 'expert only' guns, not for the ordinary armed citizen."
If you really want a snub nosed 357 Mag, get a Ruger SP101. It's extra weight (26 oz w/ 2.25" barrel vs 17 oz for LCR) will dampen the recoil come.
You've posed some good questions. Although I own a number of snub nose 38 Spec revolvers, I'll admit I've never owned a 357 Mag snub nosed revolver and don't expect I ever will. For an adequately trained shooter, both the 357 Mag and the snub nose revovler are good self defense guns. OTOH, I don't think a snub nose revolver in 357 Mag is the best choice for most shooters; I think the 38 Spec +P is the better choice. The issue w/ the snub nose 357 Mag is recoil, especially it's effect on subsequent shots.
In a really light revolver like the Ruger LCR, the 357 Mag will have heavy recoil. The main problem w/ the recoil is how much it will slow down adequately aimed and effective shots. No, the recoil is not so bad that you'll throw the gun down, but can you control it well enough to get a quick follow up shot on target? In addition, by the time you've cut the barrel on a snub nose to 2" or so, the difference in velocity between the 357 Mag and 38 Spec +P has narrowed considerably.
I find Massad Ayoob's writings very informative. Comparing the full size funs in 357 Mag and 38 Spec, he said, "Recoil, however, is substanitailly greater--usually more than the novice can handle...I don't recommend the 357 for untrained civilians." On the topic of snub nosed 357 Mags, he said, "These are 'expert only' guns, not for the ordinary armed citizen."
If you really want a snub nosed 357 Mag, get a Ruger SP101. It's extra weight (26 oz w/ 2.25" barrel vs 17 oz for LCR) will dampen the recoil come.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 12:14 am to TigerOnThe Hill
You'll be fine with the 38 +P. The real selling point on the LCR is the hogue tamer grip (non-laser) and the trigger pull.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 1:30 am to rattlebucket
If you purchase a "good" (brand name like Remington, Winchester, Speer, Federal) SELF DEFENSE HP load, you should be fine -- in either caliber.
The manufacturers are familiar with the FBI penetration test protocol. Their SELF DEFENSE ammo is not supposed to over-penetrate. 18" in 10% ballistic gel is the test limit for over-penetration.
Google some of the gel (or even water, wet packs, etc)test sites for comparative penetration of various loads.
Now a HUNTING LOAD, in 357 Magnum, may very well over-penetrate in a human. So stay away from those. Or just stay use the + p .38 Special loads.
Go with the newer polymer-tipped ammo (like Hornady, CorBon or Federal) and you'll be assured of some (fair) expansion, and probably controlled penetration.
Your best bet for avoiding over-penetration is to buy the SELF DEFENSE load that expands the most (like HST or Ranger-T). The larger diameter should impede over-penetration.
The manufacturers are familiar with the FBI penetration test protocol. Their SELF DEFENSE ammo is not supposed to over-penetrate. 18" in 10% ballistic gel is the test limit for over-penetration.
Google some of the gel (or even water, wet packs, etc)test sites for comparative penetration of various loads.
Now a HUNTING LOAD, in 357 Magnum, may very well over-penetrate in a human. So stay away from those. Or just stay use the + p .38 Special loads.
Go with the newer polymer-tipped ammo (like Hornady, CorBon or Federal) and you'll be assured of some (fair) expansion, and probably controlled penetration.
Your best bet for avoiding over-penetration is to buy the SELF DEFENSE load that expands the most (like HST or Ranger-T). The larger diameter should impede over-penetration.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 1:32 am to rattlebucket
If you purchase a "good" (brand name like Remington, Winchester, Speer, Federal) SELF DEFENSE HP load, you should be fine -- in either caliber.
The manufacturers are familiar with the FBI penetration test protocol. Their SELF DEFENSE ammo is not supposed to over-penetrate. 18" in 10% ballistic gel is the test limit for over-penetration.
Google some of the gel (or even water, wet packs, etc)test sites for comparative penetration of various loads. Here's one "old" Gel Test Site .357 magnum (As you'll see -- stay away from the Hydra Shok -->> bad over penetration.
Now a HUNTING LOAD, in 357 Magnum, may very well over-penetrate in a human. So stay away from those. Or just stay use the + p .38 Special loads.
Go with the newer polymer-tipped ammo (like Hornady, CorBon or Federal) and you'll be assured of some (fair) expansion, and probably controlled penetration.
Your best bet for avoiding over-penetration is to buy the SELF DEFENSE load that expands the most (like HST or Ranger-T). The larger diameter should impede over-penetration.
The manufacturers are familiar with the FBI penetration test protocol. Their SELF DEFENSE ammo is not supposed to over-penetrate. 18" in 10% ballistic gel is the test limit for over-penetration.
Google some of the gel (or even water, wet packs, etc)test sites for comparative penetration of various loads. Here's one "old" Gel Test Site .357 magnum (As you'll see -- stay away from the Hydra Shok -->> bad over penetration.
Now a HUNTING LOAD, in 357 Magnum, may very well over-penetrate in a human. So stay away from those. Or just stay use the + p .38 Special loads.
Go with the newer polymer-tipped ammo (like Hornady, CorBon or Federal) and you'll be assured of some (fair) expansion, and probably controlled penetration.
Your best bet for avoiding over-penetration is to buy the SELF DEFENSE load that expands the most (like HST or Ranger-T). The larger diameter should impede over-penetration.
This post was edited on 2/7/13 at 1:34 am
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:16 am to rattlebucket
quote:
Im leaning towards ruger klcr. However today at a gun shop the owner down sells me on the .357 talking about over pene
Sounds like a guy with .38s in stock and doesn't want to have to order ANOTHER in .357.
The .357 gives you the option to carry a whole range of loads. My wife carries a snubby .357 (although it's an N-frame and fairly heavy) with 8 Corbon 110 Grain .357 rounds. .357 hollowpoint rounds don't "penetrate" any more (or less) than 9mm +P, perhaps less so. All cartridge manufacturers try to find a balance between ballistic performance in flight, penetration (even in open space, a bullet has to penetrate to be effective, clothes and a certain amount of flesh or bone), expansion and kinetic energy transfer.
IF cops still carried revolvers, they would carry 4" to 6" bbl .357s loaded with the Federal 357B round (which, to make clear, I am NOT recommending for a snubb). Why? Most effective 1-shot gunfight stopper in history based on real world shootings, something like 94% to 96% - if that's not ideal, it will do until ideal comes along.
Get the KLCR - tell him (or change gun stores) that you always have the option with a .357 chambering of carrying whatever, and not have to agonize of whether a .38 +P is too hot, or will wear on the gun.
This post was edited on 2/7/13 at 7:20 am
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:18 am to rattlebucket
I own a hammerless 2" barrel. 357 taurus 7 shot. I love it.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:29 am to rattlebucket
quote:
Im leaning towards ruger klcr.
Not a bad choice there. People rave about how awesome the trigger is.
quote:
However today at a gun shop the owner down sells me on the .357 talking about over penetration etc.
Like dawg and Tiger said, as long as you go with quality ammo, you should be fine.
quote:
I only want for ccw and one day will be wifes ccw in purse in .38 but in meantime i was thinking .357 would suit me better.
I think the KLCR is a good choice.
My advice would be to go to the range with it and test how it feels back to back with some good 357 (I think PDX1s and Critical Defense are pretty mild) and then test it with some 38+p ammo. If you can handle the stout recoil, stick with 357. If it's too much for you, switch to the 38+p stuff.
But if you want more weight from the start, you can do as they suggested also. The Ruger SP101 is also a great choice and should get the job done just fine. It just weighs substantially more.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:31 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Get the KLCR - tell him (or change gun stores) that you always have the option with a .357 chambering of carrying whatever, and not have to agonize of whether a .38 +P is too hot, or will wear on the gun.
This is my exact line of thinking too. 100% agree.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:36 am to rattlebucket
I did a ton of research on snubbies before deciding on a S&W 642 Airweight in .38 special. Works great for its intended use. The +P loads are too much for me, so I only carry standard pressure.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:48 am to Tbobby
quote:
I did a ton of research on snubbies before deciding on a S&W 642 Airweight in .38 special. Works great for its intended use. The +P loads are too much for me, so I only carry standard pressure.
I see that the 442 is now chambered in +P as well - might I ask why you didn't go that route? (And, I would get a 640,if I were buying a J-frame, so I'm not slamming your choice.)
This post was edited on 2/7/13 at 7:49 am
Posted on 2/7/13 at 7:57 am to Ace Midnight
The 442 has blued steel cylinder and barrel with aluminum frame. 642 has stainless cylinder and barrel and aluminum frame. Both are rated to shoot +P and neither have an exposed hammer so they won't snag on clothes. They both go for about $420 new and fit perfectly inside a cheap Uncle Mikes size 3 inside pocket holster.
Posted on 2/7/13 at 8:11 am to Tbobby
quote:
The 442 has blued steel cylinder and barrel with aluminum frame. 642 has stainless cylinder and barrel and aluminum frame. Both are rated to shoot +P and neither have an exposed hammer so they won't snag on clothes. They both go for about $420 new and fit perfectly inside a cheap Uncle Mikes size 3 inside pocket holster.
Yeah, man, I got the difference - I was asking why you chose stainless over blued?
(Didn't the 442 used to come in a satin nickel finish, or did I dream that?)
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