America has been REPLACED. - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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Lsupimp
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Member since Nov 2003
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re: America has been REPLACED.


A typical intellectually-dishonest Leftist response:

1.Avoid answering question honestly.
2.Pick an outlier.
3.Argue against the outlier.

The Death of Reason in the service of Ideology.






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Dumplin
LSU Fan
New Orleans, LA
Member since Sep 2008
1343 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


Don't you people ever get tired of preaching doom and death? It happens after every election and America is still here.





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NELAtigers
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Nov 2010
1278 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

Germans.

Signed,
1913


16th and 17th Amendment were the beginning of the end for the Republic as it was designed.






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TxTiger82
LSU Fan
Madison, WI
Member since Sep 2004
23335 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

A typical intellectually-dishonest Leftist response:


You are asking if things have declined but you haven't given a starting point.

quote:

1.Avoid answering question honestly.


You didn't actually ask a meaningful question, that is my point, chicken little.






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braindeadboxer
LSU Fan
Utopia
Member since Nov 2011
5015 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


Its not being replaced, its being evolved





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Gmorgan4982
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Member since May 2005
99361 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


Lack of patriotism in this thread.





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Lsupimp
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Member since Nov 2003
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re: America has been REPLACED.


Here's a "meaningful" question or two.
Take the first 5/10 and address them.
Is there a decine in these traditional American values in your lifetime ?
In the last ten years?
The last five years?
Are these things static ?
Or as I surmise, in a demonstrable PERIOD OF DECLINE ?
Go ahead.
Defeat my argument.
I'm listening...
quote:

Liberty Replaced. ---Is there MORE personal liberty?
Limited Government Replaced. Is there More limited Government?
The primacy of The Individual Replaced. Is the Indivdual stronger or is The State?
Aspirational Society Replaced. Are people more aspirational or less?
Self-reliance Replaced. Are we MORE self reliant?
Excellence Replaced. You feel like America and excellence can be mentioned together?
Civic Virtue Replaced. Do we take our civic responsibility as serious ?
The original singer for Journey Replaced. The Phillipines ? Really ?
Personal Responsibility Replaced. Are we more personally responsible ?
Protestant Work Ethic Replaced.Do we work harder ?


Go ahead, demonstrate to me how America is trending.






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Lsupimp
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Member since Nov 2003
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re: America has been REPLACED.


Go ahead:
Do Americans have MORE personal liberty than a generation ago ?
Do America have a growing State Apparatus compared to a generation ago ?
Are people MORE aspirational these days or is there a growing class of sideline-sitters, than a generation ago?
Are we MORE self-reliant or are we becoming more Dependent than we were a generation ago ?

Is the long-term pronosis for America as good in 2012 as it was in 1952, 1962, 1972, 1982, 1992 or 2002 ?

Go ahead and address these questions.
I'm waiting.....








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Lsupimp
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re: America has been REPLACED.


*crickets





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elposter
Alabama Fan
Member since Dec 2010
8009 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

Lance Armstrong's left testicle replaced.


Wait, did he actually get a fake ball?






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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43890 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

Besides technology and racial relations hoow has America improved in the last generation ?
In what ways are we a more successful, vibrant , united American culture ?
What have we done that has changed America in a positive manner ?
Is our discourse better ?
Is our culture more united ?
Are our institutions stronger ?
Is our confidence higher ?
Is our future brighter ?

Abso-frickin-lootely. You're better than this. Quit your damn whining like some Chicken Little worried about the falling sky.

The last 30-40 years have been amazing, and among the greatest in our nation's history. We are currently experiencing a cultural and creative revolution which rivals that of the Industrial Revolution, which, if you've cracked open a book and a I know you have, also lead to seismic changes in American life which seemed Apocalyptic and insurmountable at the time.

Other than technology? Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? We're shifting from the Industrial Age to the Information Age and while I'm not saying it is seamless, no period of revolution is, it is freakin' remarkable. We live in the future. I literally have all of the knowledge that has been recorded at my fingertips, and you want to just gloss over that?

Two generations ago, our president would have almost almost no rights and held in a state of quasi bondage thanks to Jim Crow laws and the institution of sharecropping. Whatever you think of his politics, the fact a black man is president is a testament to the American dream. Hell, a generation ago it was practically illegal to be gay and miscegenation was still illegal in many parts of the country. Those prejudices have been largely thrown into the dustbin of history. This is an amazing and inspiring time to be alive.

quote:

Do Americans have MORE personal liberty than a generation ago ?
Do America have a growing State Apparatus compared to a generation ago ?
Are people MORE aspirational these days or is there a growing class of sideline-sitters, than a generation ago?
Are we MORE self-reliant or are we becoming more Dependent than we were a generation ago ?

A million times, yes. We have more liberty than ever, mainly due to our ability to travel like never before. We are no longer tied to the land like we once were by simple neccessity and the limitations of technology. Think about how remarkable this communication is. Across state lines, instantaneous, accessible to anyone in the world. Holy shite. It's a damn miracle. I can say or do just about anything without fear of legal reprecussion.

We couldn't be more aspirational. We have aspirations to things that haven't been invented yet.

Are the ties of community stronger? Yes. The world is getting smaller. and that's absolutely wonderful and inspiring. This is the absolute best time in the history of the world to be alive. I can't believe what we've seen in my lifetime so far and I'm excited about the future. I've got a computer in my car's dashboard more powerful than the computer I owned in college. And you want me to think the world is going to hell?

The world is awesome. Stop being afraid of change. The change I've seen has been spectacular, and inspiring. There is literally so much out there it is impossible to experience it all. And you think that's a bad thing?

We live in the future. Are their challenges? Hell yeah. And we'll meet them, because we're Americans, not a bunch of whining ninnies who are clinging to a past that never really existed. I don't fear the future, I embrace it.






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Lsupimp
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re: America has been REPLACED.


I disagree completely.
The civilization is never lost until, well, it's lost.
And you, being a friend, and someone I respect, but as I have always said, a COMPLETELY orthodox defender of the status quo political theorist, are slow to see the evidence that is piling up before your eyes.

Much of what you post (specifically technological and racial gains) I cheerfully conceded and celebrated earlier in this thread: LINK Inexplicably you are asking me to argue against an argument that I have already anticipated and acknowledged. You are better than that, old friend.

Now, let's analyze how you responded to my specific questions:

1. Do we have more personal liberty ? Your argument addresses mass communications and transportation. I'm talking about LIBERTY. You know I am making an argument about CLASSICAL LIBERTY (the freedom of individuals from State control or coercion) not about the right to board a plane and after being fondled by a TSA agent, having the ability to fly to Aruba. Likewise, the ability to make a transatlantic phone call has exactly ZERO to do with LIBERTY.

2. Are we a more aspirational society ? You didn't give me any evidence, so I don't really know what to say except OPEN YOUR EYES, look at the growth of the Entitlement Class, through raw statistics, and mountains of anecdotal evidence, and admit the obvious. We are NOT an aspirational society as we were ten years ago. Sure, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs will always be game-changers but on THE MACRO LEVEL, we have had a significant shift from aspirational society to Entitlement Society.

And then you finish with a few paragraphs of that reliable and LAZY canard of the status quo, which is to invoke the words "fear" and babble on Oprah-like about " inspiring change" and the joy of "experiencing "new things". Simply put, and I am loathe to say it because of my respect for you, but you built a STRAW MAN.

Nations DO go into periods of inexorable decline. If you would like I can refer you to a couple dozen different examples, but of course you know this. There is NOTHING so unique about America, specifically an America gripped with STATIST ZEALOTRY, that guarantees against societal collapse.

If we actively UNDERMINE every traditional Institution, Principle and Ideal that has secured our prosperity, in the name of some elitist cornball Social Justice argument, we not only may fail, we absolutely will fail.

I offer all this to you as your friend and admirer.
I know you love your country as much as me.








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Baloo
LSU Fan
Formerly MDGeaux
Member since Sep 2003
43890 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

Much of what you post (specifically technological and racial gains) I cheerfully conceded and celebrated earlier in this thread: LINK Inexplicably you are asking me to argue against an argument that I have already anticipated and acknowledged. You are better than that, old friend.

Yes, but I was pointing out those gains have been historic and, frankly, amazing. I felt you were glossing over them in a "yeah, whatever" sort of way. I don't think we spend enough time taking a step back to realize just how amazing the technological/informational gains of the past 20 years truly are. The world is unrecognizable from what is was 30 years ago.

quote:

1. Do we have more personal liberty ? Your argument addresses mass communications and transportation. I'm talking about LIBERTY. You know I am making an argument about CLASSICAL LIBERTY (the freedom of individuals from State control or coercion) not about the right to board a plane and after being fondled by a TSA agent, having the ability to fly to Aruba. Likewise, the ability to make a transatlantic phone call has exactly ZERO to do with LIBERTY.

It has everything to do with liberty. The right to travel is so fundamental to liberty it is enshrined not in the Bill of rights, but the body of the Constitution. That's how fundamental it is to liberty. Think of the most oppressed peoples in the history of the world -- they are tied to the land. Peasantry are literally considered, legally, part of the land. The fact we are unburdened by the restrictions of something as basic as where we are born is the greatest gift of liberty that any people have ever experienced. Mobility is fundamental to liberty. I'm not talking about just being able to fly to Aruba, but the ability to pack up and move from Maryland to Texas, via Louisiana.

And while one will never have "perfect" liberty so long as there is a government (but then you run into a whole lost of other problems -- like not getting murdered by ravaging hordes of bandits), I do believe our government does not excessively coerce us. I know y'all get all up in arms about it, so we're not going to see eye to eye on these things. But most of the time people bitch about having to fill out a form. Whatever. We know what truly oppressive governments look like, and this ain't it. The Russians threw Pussy Riot into gulags (honest to God gulags leftover from the Stalinist days) for criticizing Putin. Donald Trump or Ann Coulter can get on TV and call Obama every name in the book and call people traitors and vermin and have NO legal reprecussions. None.

You mean the fictional entities called corporations, which only exist by the operation of law and the organization of the state, have to obey rules and regulations? My God! It's like Absolutism!

quote:

2. Are we a more aspirational society ? You didn't give me any evidence, so I don't really know what to say except OPEN YOUR EYES, look at the growth of the Entitlement Class, through raw statistics, and mountains of anecdotal evidence, and admit the obvious. We are NOT an aspirational society as we were ten years ago. Sure, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs will always be game-changers but on THE MACRO LEVEL, we have had a significant shift from aspirational society to Entitlement Society.

The old have bitched about the laziness of the young for as long as there have been the old and the young. The Ancient Greeks complained about their lazy children. OK, eventually Greece fell, but it didn't happen in a generation, and it didn't happen because people suddenly got lazy.

We have a record number of patents filed every year, and more businesses being formed every day. We have literally new industries being invented as we speak. We are so aspirational that we have people that still argue vehemently for tax cuts for the richest 1% because they believe, one day, they will be in that 1%. I still think we have one of the most permeable class societies not only in the world, but ever. We have class mobility that our Founders would never dream of.

I know you love this country. So do I. That's why I still believe in it, and its people. I'm not saying we're free from problems, but I actually have great faith in our ability to meet them, just as we've met the problems in the past.

You mentioned 30 years ago. Are we better off? 30 years ago we had the plague of AIDS that seemed unstoppable, crack cocaine was destroying our inner cities, we had exploding murder rates and the rise of the "supercriminal", white flight was at its worst as a generation abandoned the cities. Oh, and we all thought we could die in a nuclear war at any second. Today, AIDS is no longer a death sentence and not wiping out whole communities, drugs are still an issue but the tide has turned, inner cities are seeing a resurgence as crime rates go down and the middle class has returned, younger families are rebuilding neighborhoods in cities abandoned years ago and creating new city centers. And the Soviet Union doesn't even exist anymore.

Yeah, things are better. Objectively better than they were 30 years ago.

ETA: I would say the same thing if Romney got elected. This is not about Obama. This is about the inherent awesomeness of the US of A.



This post was edited on 11/9 at 5:15 pm


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Lsupimp
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2003
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re: America has been REPLACED.


Again you are talking about completely unrelated things. I am talking about the relationship between The Individual and The State and you are making a superflous argument about our God-Given right to mobility. Government didn't give us this, and we've had it since our creation. And really, that's all you have ? That and gobblygook about Aids and Crack ?

Next you seem to be making some nonsensical argument that we aren't Russia under Putin, and that therefore we are fortunate. This COMPLETELY ignores my argument which is ALL about DECLINISM, not about ABSOLUTISM as you pretend. Nations DO decline. The United States IS in decline. The evidence is everywhere in abundance.

And then you speak of the old lamenting the habits of the young. But this is MUCH bigger than that. You Baloo, like myself, are a bit of an Anglophile, so I will remind you of what Hayak said about the Brits in Road To Serfdom:

quote:

There is one aspect of the change in moral values brought about by the advance of collectivism which at the present time provides special food for thought. It is that the virtues which are held less and less in esteem and which consequently become rarer are precisely those on which the British people justly prided themselves and in which they were generally agreed to excel.


May I remind you that over 40% of Britain survives on government goodies.They are bankrupting themselves and impovrishing their future like their European neighbors. And that virtually every social pathology is rampant and growing. And that they did this to themselves by forgetting how they achieved greatness in the first place. Not because teen kids were listening to loud rock music, but because they embraced the failed cultural and political philosophy of The Left in every segment of daily life.It WAS largely A MORAL FAILURE, that weird self-loathing instinct of The Left to destroy that which made it prosperous in the first place.

This is my argument in a nutshell.
In every measurable way, we are undermining the Principles , Traditions, Institutions and Ideals which have secured our prosperity. My argument has nothing to do with kids smoking pot on my lawn, it has everything to do with the sad fact that we have abandoned what has been given to us through sacrifice by our forefathers in favor of catastrohically failed Statism. We are conducting a sustained assault on our OWN civilization (see 20 trillion debt), and no amount of cheerleading about "the inherent awesomeness of the US of A."
will protect us if a MAJORITY of our countrymen are intent on committing National Suicide.




This post was edited on 11/9 at 6:06 pm


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buckboudreaux
LSU Fan
west monroe
Member since Jul 2004
812 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


removed.........Lance Armstrong's left testicle replaced.





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Rex
LSU Fan
Here, there, and nowhere
Member since Sep 2004
55062 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

In every measurable way, we are undermining the Principles , Traditions, Institutions and Ideals which have secured our prosperity.

I believe that slavery and then exploitation of the poor and minorities secured much of our prosperity... a prosperity which those people didn't get to share. Are you sure you want to lament the undermining of THOSE principles?








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Lsupimp
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2003
30193 posts
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re: America has been REPLACED.


quote:

slavery and then exploitation of the poor and minorities

And there you have it folks.
The moral bankruptcy of The Left in a nutshell .
I say " the Principles , Traditions, Institutions and Ideals which have secured our prosperity" and dumb arse here starts drooling "slavery" out of the side of his mouth instead of the laundry list of virtues behavior I listed.
It's like discussing the human truth contained within Shakespeare with the producer of gay midget porn.






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Rex
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Member since Sep 2004
55062 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


Are you denying the existence of slavery, racism, and exploitation as part of our tradition?







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Lsupimp
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2003
30193 posts
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re: America has been REPLACED.


No Rex.
I am denying you the opportunity to hijack my otherwise excellent thread (thanks to the estimable Baloo) so that you can hurry back to your tiny, little furry friend.






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Rex
LSU Fan
Here, there, and nowhere
Member since Sep 2004
55062 posts

re: America has been REPLACED.


Well, if you call spewing empty language such as "by every measurable way" without presenting any actual measures or whining about lost institutions and traditions without actually acknowledging them an "excellent thread" I'm going to have to beg to differ. But have fun... I won't interrupt your beatdown any further.






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