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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 3/6/13 at 5:45 pm to Barney Rubble
Posted on 3/6/13 at 5:45 pm to Barney Rubble
Just bought "The World of Ice and Fire". Its pretty damn cool and the detail is pretty incredible. I wish there were more maps of cities and fortresses though. They include King's Landing and Braavos, but I wish they would have included Winterfell, Harrenhall, Lannisport/Casterly Rock, Qarth, Mereen, Old Valyria, Volantis, Dragonstone, and Oldtown. Also wish they completed Bran's quest to where I'd know exactly where he is.
This post was edited on 3/6/13 at 5:48 pm
1
Posted on 3/6/13 at 5:52 pm to Barney Rubble
quote:
i was thinking once he blows the horn he becomes a corpse. or something along those lines. since everyone dies that blows it.
Moqorro's comment about binding the horn with blood sort of makes me think the horn might actually bind the dragon to the bloodline rather than the individual blower. The same way they seem bound to the Targs.
That's not a theory so much as a random thought.
But it could play Theon back into the action. Because otherwise, I can't see the Ironborn ever following a castrated cripple.
This post was edited on 3/6/13 at 5:54 pm
Posted on 3/6/13 at 6:20 pm to Sanford&MunSon
quote:
the corpse with the grey smile.
Definitely a greyjoy, either victarion or theon.
I keep thinking Theon, especially with his physical characteristics at this point.
Posted on 3/6/13 at 6:50 pm to Josh Fenderman
I'm pretty sure the cloth dragon (ie: fake dragon like you see in parades and such) is the guy claiming to be a Targaryen (Aegon I think) and is an indication that he's not really one.
A lot of ya'll probably know this but if you want to see a place where things like this are hashed out ad infinitum, check out the forums at westeros.org. Tons and tons of speculation on there.
A lot of ya'll probably know this but if you want to see a place where things like this are hashed out ad infinitum, check out the forums at westeros.org. Tons and tons of speculation on there.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 12:54 am to Methuselah
This thread is 20x better than anything on westeros.org's forums..... Now their wiki of ice and fire is amazing I've wasting an absurd and quite worrisome amount of time there.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 1:00 am to CottonWasKing
I love reading up on all the minor characters like Stannis' or Robb's bannermen. I've always wondered why the book points out that nearly all of the storm lords abandoned Stannis on the Blackwater when most of the lords and knights mentioned in ADWD and the teaser chapter are from the storm lands.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 1:13 am to NIH
Well it would make sense that his most trusted advisors and companions come from those who stayed true to him even in the face of so much betrayal. Plus those storm lords that remained are really ALL stannis has left. His routing of the wildling army tends to make us forget just how few his numbers are..... The only things that allowed Stannis' forces to cut through the wildlings are the element of surprise, superior arms and army (particularly his heavy cavalry which is for all practical intents and purposes non-existent) and the discipline of his troops.
Stannis' army really stands no chance against a true westerosi army and that's part of the reason he is risking it all on a death march through a northern winter.
Stannis' army really stands no chance against a true westerosi army and that's part of the reason he is risking it all on a death march through a northern winter.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 1:32 am to CottonWasKing
Right, he only has 1500 southron troops which is even smaller than the number of gold cloaks in KL.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 1:44 am to NIH
The question is if stannis' death march succeeds and he takes winterfell how much will his numbers swell? Will the wildlings follow him now that Jon is gone? Will he take his new found might and assault the wall to seek vengeance for the murder of his most powerful ally? Will he bring down the wall and usher forth the long night unknowingly?
I think he will.... I think in the end Stannis becomes the anti-Azor Ahai..... He doesn't defeat the others like Mel predicted. He opens the door for them.
I think he will.... I think in the end Stannis becomes the anti-Azor Ahai..... He doesn't defeat the others like Mel predicted. He opens the door for them.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 1:55 am to CottonWasKing
I think Stannis dies in some heroic/selfless way to help Jon and the realm out. I think he will fuel Jon to become leader/king in the north before his time is done. I think his ultimate arch will be realizing that Jon is the true AA or King. In ASOS he was talking to Mel/Davos about how he didn't want the burden and how Robert was suited for it but it was his duty.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 2:08 am to NIH
I think it would be GRRMish for Stannis to be forced to recognize and pay for his folly. His folly being that believed himself to be more than a younger brother to a king. Oh he says that he doesn't want the crown but its like my parents always told me "I hear what you say but I believe what you do".
Stannis has fought to hard and too long. He has risked to much for a crown he doesn't want. He burned his gods, he shunned his wife in the belief that he was more than just a man. He was an honorable who dishonored himself while believing he was doing what is right.
Ned dishonored himself by admitting to treason because he thought he was protecting his family..... He died
Robb dishonored himself while attempting to salvage the honor of the woman he loved...... He died
They both died in a moment where they could recognize their folly. They were great men who led great lives until they did one thing to tarnish their armor of pride and honor and they lived just long enough to realize it...... Did they regret it? No, but they still died for it.
Stannis bought into Mel's belief that he was more than a man. That he was above the gods and he did this under the pretense that he was defending his brother's legacy....... And he will die in a very similar way.
There is no heroes death waiting for Stannis.
Stannis has fought to hard and too long. He has risked to much for a crown he doesn't want. He burned his gods, he shunned his wife in the belief that he was more than just a man. He was an honorable who dishonored himself while believing he was doing what is right.
Ned dishonored himself by admitting to treason because he thought he was protecting his family..... He died
Robb dishonored himself while attempting to salvage the honor of the woman he loved...... He died
They both died in a moment where they could recognize their folly. They were great men who led great lives until they did one thing to tarnish their armor of pride and honor and they lived just long enough to realize it...... Did they regret it? No, but they still died for it.
Stannis bought into Mel's belief that he was more than a man. That he was above the gods and he did this under the pretense that he was defending his brother's legacy....... And he will die in a very similar way.
There is no heroes death waiting for Stannis.
This post was edited on 3/7/13 at 2:11 am
Posted on 3/7/13 at 2:17 am to CottonWasKing
Ned and Robb ended up dead becaused they trusted in other people's honor...Stannis pretty much trusts no one outside of Davos.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 7:13 am to CottonWasKing
quote:
This thread is 20x better than anything on westeros.org's forums..... Now their wiki of ice and fire is amazing I've wasting an absurd and quite worrisome amount of time there.
To be honest, I spend a lot more time on here than on there myself. But it's so huge - I think there are almost 20,000 topics (ie: threads) on just the books, not counting the ones on the t.v. show - that it's a good place to find info if you're interested in the latest theories and speculation. Those guys and girls have hashed out just about every theory imaginable.
And yeah, the wikis are pretty cool.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 7:34 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Just bought "The World of Ice and Fire". Its pretty damn cool and the detail is pretty incredible. I wish there were more maps of cities and fortresses though. They include King's Landing and Braavos, but I wish they would have included Winterfell, Harrenhall, Lannisport/Casterly Rock, Qarth, Mereen, Old Valyria, Volantis, Dragonstone, and Oldtown. Also wish they completed Bran's quest to where I'd know exactly where he is.
I got it a few months ago, too. It's really cool, but I haven't looked at any of the maps in a long time. I don't know how they could have done it differently, but the fact that you have to take out each map individually is a pain. I probably didn't do enough research before buying, but I was expecting more of a book rather than a case to store all the maps.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 8:26 am to NIH
quote:
I think Stannis dies in some heroic/selfless way to help Jon and the realm out. I think he will fuel Jon to become leader/king in the north before his time is done. I think his ultimate arch will be realizing that Jon is the true AA or King. In ASOS he was talking to Mel/Davos about how he didn't want the burden and how Robert was suited for it but it was his duty.
Agreed. Jon will rise, his nature as a true Targaryen will be revealed, and also that he was Robb's heir. Stannis will bend the knee to him since he is the rightful lord of the Seven Kingdoms and is destined to save the Seven Kingdoms. Stannis I think will make a last stand at the end as the Others bring down the wall. I'm betting the Epilogue of WoW is focused on Stannis.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 8:27 am to DestrehanTiger
Does anyone else think Bronn will play a major role here soon? If i recall, its him and some hedgeknights chillin in Stokeworth
Posted on 3/7/13 at 8:30 am to GonzoLeslie
this is NOT mine. I just saw this. Curious what yall think about it
quote:
To clarify, this isn’t about the elder brother of some prophecy, but pertaining to the Elder Brother we meet briefly on the Quiet Isle in AFFC. The majority of the conversation on forums over this meeting surrounds the identity of the gravedigger, whom many speculate to be Sandor Clegane. I won’t go into that as it’s been around for years and been beaten to death time and time again. It is interesting, however, that after all this discussion there have been no real conclusive attempts at uncovering the identity of the Elder Brother himself. And so, this brings us to the point of my post; a small case of hidden identity.
The first time we meet the Elder Brother, he is described in extreme detail:
The Elder Brother was not what Brienne had expected. He could hardly be called elder, for a start; whereas the brothers weeding in the garden had had the stooped shoulders and bent backs of old men, he stood straight and tall, and moved with the vigor of a man in the prime of his years. Nor did he have the gentle, kindly face she expected of a healer. His head was large and square, his eyes shrewd, his nose veined and red. Though he wore a tonsure, his scalp was as stubbly as his heavy jaw.
Brienne VI, AFFC.
In this description, it is clear the Elder Brother is reasonably fit, tall and strong. This means it is likely he was once someone that’s family has either been prone to endurance training via either working in the field or training soldiers; but we’ll look more closely into what that could mean later. The notion of the Elder Brother being a larger man is further perpetuated in this chapter:
“Do you?” He leaned forward, his big hands on his knees.
Brienne VI, AFFC.
To give us an idea for how old he is, he goes on to tell Brienne:
“You are young, child. I have counted four-and-forty name days... which makes me more than twice your age, I think. Would it surprise you to learn that I was once a knight?”
Brienne VI, AFFC.
As a 44 year old, the dude’s in shape. Not only that, he used to be a knight, before he swore his vows and became a holy brother. So how long ago did he join the brotherhood? We also learn this later in the chapter:
“When I died in the Battle of the Trident, I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag… [cont] Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day.”
Brienne VI, AFFC.
Based on a rough timeline between the Battle of the Trident and AFFC, this puts the Elder Brother at approximately 27 or 28 when he fought for Rhaegar; yet seemingly unmarried and without children. It would also appear that he himself had little interest in the political side of the battle that took place many years ago. Brienne enquires as to why he gave up his knighthood to become a brother. He replies:
“I never chose it. My father was a knight, and his before him. So were my brothers, every one. I was trained for battle since the day they deemed me old enough to hold a wooden sword. I saw my share of them, and did not disgrace myself. I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force. There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord, but I was my father’s thirdborn son and had neither land nor wealth to offer her... only a sword, a horse, a shield.”
Brienne VI, AFFC.
So to put all things together, what we can be certain of is that the Elder Brother is a large and strong man that once had numerous brothers (of which he was thirdborn) whom all were knights. At aged approx. 27, he fought with Prince Rhaegar, got knocked out and ended up barely alive at the Quiet Isle where he has served as a holy brother ever since.
So what houses do we know of that:
Had numerous male heirs?
Had money enough that all the sons could afford swords, armour & horses?
But not so much money that all the sons could have land & independent wealth?
Fought for Rhaegar on the Trident?
Most likely, this could place his original house to any number of smaller houses in the Reach, Crownlands or Dorne. But I have another idea, much closer to home. I theorise that the Elder Brother was the unnamed thirdborn son of House Darry; in which there is some supporting evidence to suggest this may be possible so bear with me while I explain.
First things first, appearance. As I stated earlier, the Elder Brother was described as being tall, strong and with big hands. Daenerys recalls her encounter with a Darry in AGOT:
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, halfblind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany.
Daenerys I, AGOT.
This post was edited on 3/7/13 at 8:31 am
Posted on 3/7/13 at 8:30 am to GonzoLeslie
quote:
From an visual point of view, both Willem Darry & the Elder Brother are large and strong, even at an older age, but this is hardly reason for confirmation.
Next thing, family logistics. In AGOT, Eddard thinks:
Ser Raymun [Darry] lived under the king’s peace, but his family had fought beneath Rhaegar’s dragon banners at the Trident, and his three older brothers had died there, a truth neither Robert nor Ser Raymun had forgotten.
Eddard III, AGOT.
Therefore Ser Raymun had a minimum of four older brothers, three of which had died on the Trident and the fourth being Ser Willem Darry, whom fled Dragonstone with the Targaryen children later on. We know the names of one of these three brothers, Ser Jonothor Darry, who was a knight of the kingsguard, though the other two were never mentioned by name.
This keeps in line with the Elder Brother’s recollection of all of his brothers being knights. This would also have to assume that when the Elder Brother Darry was knocked unconcious in the river, stripped of all armour and weapons, he was assumed dead. Nobody would have any reason to suggest he was still alive if he did not return after the battle. If this were true, it would make the family line look something like this:
Lord Unnamed Darry.
Ser Willem Darry, heir.
Ser Jonothor Darry, of the kingsguard.
[Speculated] Ser Elder Brother Darry.
[Speculated] Ser Unnamed Darry.
Ser Raynum Darry.
This would mean the family alignment is definitely possible, though not certain.
It is also interesting to note three more points that may support this theory. The first is that the Elder Brother refers to the Darry family twice in the same chapter; whereas almost no other minor character makes constant reference to that family name. One reference is most intriguing:
“… there is a new young lord in Darry, a pious man who will surely set his lands to rights.”
Brienne VI, AFFC.
There is a clear fondness for the Darry lands in the Elder Brother’s words, which may give credence to his past history.
The second point refers to the House Sigil: A Man Holding a Plow Sable. This is most fitting for a holy brother, who must constantly plow the rough land in order for it to be possible that better things can grow from it (Sandor Clegane reference anyone?).
The third point is that it would be an interesting realisation that Sandor’s brother was the one that killed the Elder Brother’s younger brother (if that makes sense), as Ser Gregor killed Ser Raymun in an ambush.
Like all good theories, however, there are two main points that cast shadows of doubt into the validity of this idea.
1 - Serving the Lord
“I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag.”
Brienne VI, AFFC.
Darry was a bannerman of the Riverlands, and after a while Hoster Tully raised his banners for the Rebellion, not for Rhaegar. By saying that the Elder Brother Darry’s decision to support Rhaegar was based on higher lords’ political stances would mean by logic that he would have supported the Rebellion, regardless of how loyal the Darry’s were to the Targaryens. This could just mean he served his lord father, who served the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms who served the Seven; but that is just as unlikely and open to your own opinion.
2 - Not getting to marry his love
“There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord, but I was my father’s thirdborn son and had neither land nor wealth to offer her... only a sword, a horse, a shield.”
Brienne VI, AFFC.
This is not technically a counterpoint, as even if the Elder Brother was a Darry, officially he would not have any land nor wealth unless his father and older brother died (excludes Jonothor as he is part of the Kingsguard). But I still imagine being married to the third heir of Darry would be enough for a petty lord to give up his younger daughter to even if she wasn’t destined to be a Lady of a holdfast. Darry, at the time before the rebellion, was still a prominent lordship.
So what does this all mean? Nothing really, it just pissed me off that I had no idea who he was and this makes sense to me. Plus I have waaaaaaay too much time on my hands. Thoughts and opinions are most welcome.
So yeah. TL;DR: The Elder Brother that Brienne encounters in AFFC is actually a Darry, which technically makes him the only living male Darry left in Westeros.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 8:38 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Stannis will bend the knee to him since he is the rightful lord of the Seven Kingdoms and is destined to save the Seven Kingdoms.
How is Jon the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms? Robert took them by conquest. Stannis has more of a claim at the moment than any Targaryen.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:01 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Robert
usurper
quote:
Stannis
usurper wannabe
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