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re: If you gave me a choice between Chavis/Haley or Steele/Orgeron
Posted on 1/15/15 at 11:52 am to Wayne Campbell
Posted on 1/15/15 at 11:52 am to Wayne Campbell
quote:
Maybe go back and look at the 2012 and 2014 box scores. LSU dominated TOP in both games. So it's not like the D should have been gassed.
Both years LSU held the lead late in the game. Both years the D gave up big plays to allow Bama to win or tie.
Therein lies the problem with Miles's offensive philosophy. The primary job of the offense is to score points. It is not to possess the ball.
In 2014, Chavis's defense held the #15 scoring offense in the country to 13 points in regulation. That was over 3 TDs less than their scoring average. Conversely, Bama gave up an average of 18.4 points per game on defense, but the LSU offense couldn't even get to that. If LSU's offense only performs as well as AVERAGE against Bama, LSU wins and we aren't having this discussion.
So who gets the blame for the loss? Why, the defense, of course!
This post was edited on 1/15/15 at 12:00 pm
1
Posted on 1/15/15 at 11:59 am to Tigerdev
quote:
You are too obsessed with stats to have a football conversation with. Have fun playing fantasy football NCAA edition, I guess.
Watch the games. Watch the games. Watch the games.
No one can watch all the games of all the teams that interest them. You may have watched all the LSU games, but how many games of other schools have you watched? Only a small fraction. Stats are just numerical summaries of what happened in a game. They can be misinterpreted, and they don't always tell the complete story, but they do not lie.
For example, how many A&M games have you watched? Unless you've watched all or almost all of them, how can you claim to know anything about the team? Do you simply refrain from talking about the team (obviously not), or do you look at the stats as the next best thing to watching all the games (almost assuredly the case).
Posted on 1/15/15 at 11:59 am to Mirthomatic
quote:
Do you not have QB talent in Louisiana? Or do those QBs largely decline to play for an offense that makes little (and often ineffective) use of the position
Yea. #1 qb in the nation but he was too busy doing coke and got kicked off the team. After that, we had a shite show for years. Wasn't a normal situation and we were sol for awhile.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:01 pm to Mirthomatic
quote:
For example, how many A&M games have you watched? Unless you've watched all or almost all of them, how can you claim to know anything about the team?
The problem for you here is that all of this talk is centered around the guy that's been on our staff for years, not the other way around. We've watched all the games he has coached, you haven't.
See?
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:04 pm to Jones
Louisiana QB prospects are few and far between
Most LA high schools just put their best athlete at QB instead of trying to find a guy that can develop into that prototypical QB
Most LA high schools just put their best athlete at QB instead of trying to find a guy that can develop into that prototypical QB
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:10 pm to Jones
quote:
The problem for you here is that all of this talk is centered around the guy that's been on our staff for years, not the other way around. We've watched all the games he has coached, you haven't.
See?
No, PART of the conversation is centered around him, but one of the big claims LSU posters are making is that Chavis won't turn around the A&M defense because there isn't enough talent to work with. If you haven't followed A&M recruiting and roster management and watched all the Aggie games yourself, then by your logic, none of you are qualified to predict how Chavis will do at A&M.
If your position is that a fan can't intelligently discuss a team unless he's watched all their games, then literally no fanbase can talk with any other fanbase.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:28 pm to Mirthomatic
I simply abstain from making sweeping judgments based on statistics. Is that hard for you to grasp? This isn't fantasy football bro.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:33 pm to Mirthomatic
quote:
If LSU's offense only performs as well as AVERAGE against Bama, LSU wins and we aren't having this discussion.
If if was a skiff we could all go to church.
Taking actuall points out of the discussion, LSU took the lead with <2 minutes remaining in the game. The "elite" defense gave up 55 yards on 9 plays and a game tying field goal.
And even with all the focus being on the past Bama games, that defense gave up an almost 6 minute, 71 yards 14 play drive to lose the bowl game. And nearly did the same damn thing against Ole Miss.
No, the defense is not totally to blame for the way those games turned out. But it's a damn straw man argument to say "the offense should have scored more."
Unless the offense scores touchdowns on every possession, they always could have scored more. Especially in a loss.
Stats don't lie, they can't, they're just numbers. But they don't tell near the whole story, and they're frequently misused.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:45 pm to L.A.
There should not be any chest thumping in this thread by LSU fans. Even in the eyes of Chavis's worst detractor, they would have to say A&M got better all the way around on defense. It's just fact. They sucked and he will make them better. This is also a team we have to play every year. I don't like them getting better. All we know about LSU is that we got better at recruiting by a large margin. I am not saying we went up or down on game day, we just don't know.
Personally, I hope that I can now rest easier on 3rd & 18 or 3rd & 20+. As a football fan, that should be a time where you can relax and say "Nice stop team". We have not been able to do that for awhile.
Personally, I hope that I can now rest easier on 3rd & 18 or 3rd & 20+. As a football fan, that should be a time where you can relax and say "Nice stop team". We have not been able to do that for awhile.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:45 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
I simply abstain from making sweeping judgments based on statistics.
And yet you felt qualified to make the following statement:
quote:
The aggie defense will not be elite next year and unless they change their recruiting and philosophy
Have you closely followed Aggie recruiting? Are you well versed in Sumlin's football philosophy?
Probably "no" to both.
I get that you don't put much stock in stats. I'm asking why, given your logic, do you feel qualified to comment about any team that isn't LSU?
Posted on 1/15/15 at 12:56 pm to Wayne Campbell
quote:
Taking actuall points out of the discussion, LSU took the lead with <2 minutes remaining in the game. The "elite" defense gave up 55 yards on 9 plays and a game tying field goal.
You can't focus on the last 2 minutes of the game, ignoring the previous 58.
quote:
And even with all the focus being on the past Bama games, that defense gave up an almost 6 minute, 71 yards 14 play drive to lose the bowl game. And nearly did the same damn thing against Ole Miss.
You mean the Ole Miss game you won 10-7? So now the defense is getting criticized for scores it ALMOST-BUT-DIDN'T give up in a game for which it deserves the lion's share of credit for winning?
quote:
No, the defense is not totally to blame for the way those games turned out. But it's a damn straw man argument to say "the offense should have scored more."
Unless the offense scores touchdowns on every possession, they always could have scored more. Especially in a loss.
For the 2014 Bama game, the offense didn't have to score a TD on every possession. Or every 2nd possession. Or every 3rd possession. Or every 4th possession. Or every 5th possession. If the offense had scored a TD on 2 out of the 14 legit possessions you had in regulation, you win the game.
Look, I'll grant you that the defense wasn't perfect, and it was largely responsible for some losses, such as the Notre Dame bowl game. But to claim that it ALSO is to blame for all the recent Bama losses... that's just expecting WAY too much from a defense, and WAY too little from the offense.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 1:07 pm to Cypdog
quote:
LSU fans. Even in the eyes of Chavis's worst detractor, they would have to say A&M got better all the way around on defense.
I have not seen 1 lsu fan say that A&M got worse because of chavis. In fact, everyone has said they will be better with Chavis.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 1:15 pm to Jones
That was directed to the OP and the thread title. It is just a statement, not any specific arguement.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 2:07 pm to Mirthomatic
For one, I don't feel qualified nor do I know the ins and outs of TAMU football because I only watch 3-4 games per year. I'll be transparent about my assumptions which inform my conjecture:
1.) TAMU recruits and coaches to score points. They are not a defensive team philosophically. Defensive teams at all levels usually favor ball control offense to minimize the number of possessions in the game and keep the score low. Could this be a faulty assumption? Sure. But I would eager to see your evidence against this...
which leads to: Chavis. Chavis is a solid coordinator. I have said this repeatedly. Is he a savior? No. He is not someone whose scheme is so successful that he can run a great defense with only "good" personnel. He has never achieved this once in his career. He has put out great/elite defenses when the talent level was full of upper-class mega-stardom, put out decent defenses when the talent was drained, and good defenses (2014) when the talent was good. Chavis does not recruit so he really fit in perfectly at LSU where we recruit defensive talent very well without his input.
His scheme is to match up man for man and beat your guy. If the players cant do that the defense gets gashed. If our players are better than their matchups then we usually do pretty damn well.
I think you will like having Chavis (you guys have chest-thumped the hire so hard you have no choice lol). But he is way over-rated. He did not "make" LSU a team known for great defenses. That tradition will not leave with him.
Best of luck, outside of thanksgiving of course.
1.) TAMU recruits and coaches to score points. They are not a defensive team philosophically. Defensive teams at all levels usually favor ball control offense to minimize the number of possessions in the game and keep the score low. Could this be a faulty assumption? Sure. But I would eager to see your evidence against this...
which leads to: Chavis. Chavis is a solid coordinator. I have said this repeatedly. Is he a savior? No. He is not someone whose scheme is so successful that he can run a great defense with only "good" personnel. He has never achieved this once in his career. He has put out great/elite defenses when the talent level was full of upper-class mega-stardom, put out decent defenses when the talent was drained, and good defenses (2014) when the talent was good. Chavis does not recruit so he really fit in perfectly at LSU where we recruit defensive talent very well without his input.
His scheme is to match up man for man and beat your guy. If the players cant do that the defense gets gashed. If our players are better than their matchups then we usually do pretty damn well.
I think you will like having Chavis (you guys have chest-thumped the hire so hard you have no choice lol). But he is way over-rated. He did not "make" LSU a team known for great defenses. That tradition will not leave with him.
Best of luck, outside of thanksgiving of course.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 2:13 pm to Mirthomatic
I don't think it's asking too much for a defense to hold a lead for 1 minute and 12 seconds. The offense has been terrible, not one person will say anything differently.
The offense being bad doesn't absolve the defense from their faults, and vice versa.
And as good as the defense was under Chavis, it's undebiable that his playcalling resulted in several last second losses. And that's a characteristic that goes back to his days at Tennessee.
The offense being bad doesn't absolve the defense from their faults, and vice versa.
And as good as the defense was under Chavis, it's undebiable that his playcalling resulted in several last second losses. And that's a characteristic that goes back to his days at Tennessee.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 3:02 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
1.) TAMU recruits and coaches to score points. They are not a defensive team philosophically. Defensive teams at all levels usually favor ball control offense to minimize the number of possessions in the game and keep the score low.
A&M recruits to score points and to keep the opposition from scoring. The two are not incompatible. In fact, recent recruiting has actually been stronger on the defensive side of the ball. We signed nine 4/5 star defenders last year, compared w/ just five 4/5 star offensive players.
quote:
Defensive teams at all levels usually favor ball control offense to minimize the number of possessions in the game and keep the score low.
Your plan to minimize possessions may not be working. In 5 games against non-A&M SEC West opponents, LSU faced 64 drives by the opposing offense. In 5 games against non-LSU SEC West opponents, faced 65 drives by the opposing offense.
Is a reduction of one drive in 5 games really that big of a deal? You don't have to be EITHER an offensive team OR a defensive one. Bama is a great example of that. They were 6th in scoring D this year, and 16th in scoring offense. Saban knew that the evolution of football is towards higher scoring, so he's adapting to that. You are much more likely to see scores like 48-45 than 9-6 these days.
Sumlin knows this, too. And he's pretty much got the offensive side of the ball covered. He's also one hell of a recruiter. He needed someone on the defensive side of the ball, and now he has Chavis. Does Chavis need good-great talent? OK, Sumlin will get that for him. You pair Sumlin's historically top-10 offenses w/ even a top 25 defense from Chavis, and that's a yearly contender for the West.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 3:14 pm to Mirthomatic
Top 25 would be a large improvement. Only time will tell.
What you are getting is a solid X's and O's type but not anything revolutionary. Honestly, Chavis' claim to fame is owning you guys which is probably why you have come to expect so much from him.
What you are getting is a solid X's and O's type but not anything revolutionary. Honestly, Chavis' claim to fame is owning you guys which is probably why you have come to expect so much from him.
Posted on 1/15/15 at 3:20 pm to Wayne Campbell
For my final post on this thread, I'll say that I get how it can be frustrating to lose on the final possession by the opposition. I may even get to experience that next year. But I just look at how each unit performed throughout the game. No defense ever decides to give up a TD, and points scored in the first minute of the game count the same as points scored in the final seconds. If Chavis's defenses can limit a team to 17-21 points, I really won't care when they're scored. If we STILL lose, then my ire will be directed at Sumlin/Spavital.
Enjoyed the conversation with you folks.
Enjoyed the conversation with you folks.
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