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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS

Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:11 am to
Posted by CottonWasKing
4,8,15,16,23,42
Member since Jun 2011
28601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:11 am to
The US and the Soviets were technically allies in WWII but did they LIKE each other? Did they trust each other and want to rub elbows?

Who knows that The Others even knew about Bran?
Posted by manwich
You've wanted my
Member since Oct 2008
52601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:15 am to
i know it's possible but i'm looking at it from all angles and, while i like that one, is there anything solid to support it other than the general motive of both to move south?

the children may not be as pure and innocent as the average reader would assume about some wood sprite-like entities
Posted by jrodLSUke
Premium
Member since Jan 2011
22044 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:22 am to
quote:

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?" "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

Welcome to the first installment of Crackpot Consensus; a subdropping within our most beloved of threads. This multipart series will explore some of the most popular of our Crackpot Theories in order for our esteemed panel of experts to determine which ones we can accept as doctrine.

For our first proposal, I'd like to suggest that GRRM has already revealed the "Three Heads of the Dragon" (3HotD):

Danerys Targaryen
Aegon VI (not to be confused with Young Griff*)
Jon Snow

Not to be confused with potential dragon riders; which would be a different debate altogether (or maybe not).

This topic comes up quite frequently on ASOIAF discussion boards. And quite frankly, I am always a bit surprised that anyone would suggest that there other options for the 3HofD.

It appears to me that all of the facts are pretty well laid out for this one. The prophesy from the House of the Undying makes it very clear that Aegon and and Dany are two of the 3HotD. And everything we know about Jon, including R + L = J, solidfy him as being the third.

Do we have a consensus?

...Of course we do.

What's your Crackpot Consensus?
Posted by CottonWasKing
4,8,15,16,23,42
Member since Jun 2011
28601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:23 am to
Nothing concrete but GRRM is definitely alluding to something darker with his choice of words used to describe the children and bloodravens dwelling.
Posted by CottonWasKing
4,8,15,16,23,42
Member since Jun 2011
28601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:25 am to
If you try to tell me that darkstar=aegon again I'm gonna murder a puppy.....
Posted by manwich
You've wanted my
Member since Oct 2008
52601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:33 am to
quote:

Aegon VI (not to be confused with Young Griff*)
quote:

Young Griff: An Explanatory Essay

When asked about Young Griff, or Aegon VI Targaryen, most people will respond with their stance on the controversy surrounding his true identity—this meta, however, will focus on the nature of his character alone. Since he has only appeared in one book, the series has not yet granted us a wealth of evidence; but the bits it has given us will be explored here.

Young Griff is, at the heart of it, a simple young man. Though he has been groomed for rule his whole life, all his experiences are that of a common boy. He has never lived in luxury or splendour; nay, he hasn’t ever even lived in Westeros as far as he can remember—much like Daenerys. His life has been spent in Essos, learning trades like fishing and sailing. His company has been more or less constant: his protector and father figure, Jon Connington, his septa and mother figure, Septa Lemore, his cynical halfmaester, and his raucous brother-in-arms, Rolly Duckfield. These companions have formed a close-knit family around him; for Griff, they are his parents and uncles and siblings. He has never been flattered by courtiers, threatened by enemies, or seduced by ambitious noble ladies—though he knows these people exist and will one day be a part of his life.

Young Griff is thus: the product of Jon’s stern upbringing, Haldon’s witty cynicism, Lemore’s gentle empathy, and Rolly’s boyish charm. He is what every noble young man is: an untried boy, taught everything he should know about the world he will inherit. The difference between Young Griff and Robb Stark, Tommen Baratheon, or Quentyn Martell, however, is that while Griff knows what his dues are, he has lived his whole life being denied their comforts. He has worked with his hands for years, traded with shrewd Essosi peddlers, toiled under the Volantene sun, and tasted the effects of poverty, all while coming home every night and practising his Valyrian dialects. His experiences among genuine commoners have given him an indiscriminate attitude towards those he meets; if he likes them, he befriends them. With Young Griff, there are never ulterior motives.

The evidence of this is rampant in his interactions with the other characters. Rolly Duckfield, a Westerosi exile, lived in the shadow of a lord’s castle and fled when he butted heads with the lord’s son. He had no claim to nobility, no special alliances or castles or armies, no extensive knowledge of Westerosi politics for Young Griff to learn from. However, Rolly was funny, affable, and best of all, loyal to a fault. Griff’s acceptance of him and the friendship that resulted prove not only that he lacks the dishonest ambition that drive too many noble friendships and alliances, but also that he was the type of man that a Westerosi commoner would die to have made king.

Enter Tyrion, or ‘Hugor Hill’. Upon their introduction, Young Griff believed him to be a bastard dwarf from Flea Bottom, useless in furthering any ambitions. Nevertheless, he befriended Tyrion—even defending his presence on their ship to Jon Connington, his father for all intents and purposes—because he liked him. Tyrion could not fight for Young Griff, or persuade anyone to join him. For all Young Griff knew, Tyrion was just a poor, funny dwarf with an unusually sharp tongue. And for that reason alone, Young Griff felt he was a worthy friend.

Now, like any character in this series, he is in no way without flaws. In spite of his upbringing, Young Griff maintains the instinct to be a young man. He has a small temper and prickly pride—evidenced by his put-out reaction when Tyrion beats him at cyvasse, a game he had been training at his entire life—as well as reckless bravery and a boy’s thirst for glory, illustrated in his insistence that he lead the battle for Storm’s End. While his being raised among commoners have given him special insight about the reality of poverty and anonymity, it has also made him forget that, in the grand scheme of things, his own life and success are of paramount importance. In his mind, he cannot see why he should not be risking his life for their cause if his friends are doing the same.

By all accounts, Young Griff has inherited Rhaegar’s boldness and Elia’s sympathetic heart. He is loyal, capable, and brave to the point of stupidity—but he is also the only current contender for the Iron Throne who truly knows what it means to be one of the smallfolk. He possesses a subtle intelligence that, while it is in no way the brand of sharp cunning that Varys or Tyrion or Petyr wield, does not make him a simple pushover, either. He does not have any visible bloodlust, and does not want to win his father’s country back with dragons. In Young Griff’s mind, he only needs an army of loyal men, each of them a friend, to get him where he needs to be. Though this notion speaks of just how naive he is when it comes to the world of politics, it also makes him unique amidst a country of schemers.
Posted by Mr. Wayne
Member since Feb 2008
10047 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:48 am to
Okay I change my vote to Aegon
Posted by PsychTiger
Member since Jul 2004
98700 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 9:50 am to
quote:

If you try to tell me that darkstar=aegon again I'm gonna murder a puppy.....


If you had only said cat instead of puppy ...
Posted by manwich
You've wanted my
Member since Oct 2008
52601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:07 am to
quote:

Okay I change my vote to Aegon
wait...what are we voting on?
Posted by ladytiger118
Member since Aug 2009
20922 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:09 am to
I could definitely see the CotF and the Others being on the same side. But then, why does Bloodraven want Bran? Does he need him on his side as some sort of Stark sacrifice sort of deal? We know Bran the Builder built the wall, so does he need this Bran to destroy it? And what happens if Bran finds out their plan?
Posted by CottonWasKing
4,8,15,16,23,42
Member since Jun 2011
28601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:12 am to
quote:

I could definitely see the CotF and the Others being on the same side. But then, why does Bloodraven want Bran? Does he need him on his side as some sort of Stark sacrifice sort of deal? We know Bran the Builder built the wall, so does he need this Bran to destroy it? And what happens if Bran finds out their plan?



Bloodraven is dying. He knows that he likely will never see his plans come to fruition. He needs a heir, a green seer as powerful as himself. Only Bran is that strong.
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
6704 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:24 am to
quote:

Danerys Targaryen Aegon VI (not to be confused with Young Griff*) Jon Snow

quote:

The prophesy from the House of the Undying makes it very clear that Aegon and and Dany are two of the 3HotD

What's your reasoning on this?
Posted by ladytiger118
Member since Aug 2009
20922 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:33 am to
I thought the HotU scene made it seem like Rhaegar and Elia's 2 kids were the dragon riders, but that he needed 1 more. Elia was infertile/strongly advised not to have anymore children after her first 2 kids. Therefore, we can further assume that we have more evidence that Rhaegar pursued a relationship with Lyanna and had Jon as the 3rd dragon rider.

But, if we are to believe that Aegon is real, but Rhaenys still dead, would Dany take Rhaenys' place as a rider? Therefore Dany wasn't the original of the three, but rather an "alternate" rider since Rhaenys died.
Posted by jrodLSUke
Premium
Member since Jan 2011
22044 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:33 am to
quote:

Young Griff is, at the heart of it, a simple young man.

quote:

taught everything he should know about the world he will inherit.

quote:

Young Griff has inherited Rhaegar’s boldness and Elia’s sympathetic heart.

Truly, he must be a king.

quote:

a close-knit family around him

quote:

e is loyal, capable, and brave to the point of stupidity

quote:

while it is in no way the brand of sharp cunning that Varys or Tyrion or Petyr wield


Oh, he dead!

Posted by jrodLSUke
Premium
Member since Jan 2011
22044 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:51 am to
quote:

If you try to tell me that darkstar=aegon again I'm gonna murder a puppy

Nah, that was just a Crackpot Theory.

We all know the Darkstar=Ned; bound to seek revenge.
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
6704 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:54 am to
Gotcha, I didn't know that was a theory. I was thinking he was confusing Daenerys for one of Rhaegar's children
Posted by ladytiger118
Member since Aug 2009
20922 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 10:57 am to
I am just trying to clarify what I think he meant . But technically Dany wouldn't have been 1 of the 3 original heads if that makes sense; it would've been Rhaegar's kids.
This post was edited on 6/20/13 at 10:57 am
Posted by manwich
You've wanted my
Member since Oct 2008
52601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 11:20 am to
if that is the case, which GRRM is leading us to believe, how will he convince him to work with the Others? Bran and Jon must get behind bloodraven's plans for this to evolve into an ice vs fire story.
Jon sees the Others as a huge threat to the realms of men. if he, as AA, is truly going to be a dragon rider, will he be battling his brother?

it seems like Dany's horde + dragons + Northern Lords + Southern Lords + Rickon's cannibals + Wall/Wildlings + CotF/Bran Flakes + whoever else VS. the Others kind of kills the whole underdog heros defeat the unstoppable force angle. With all that power amassed against the Others, the reader would expect them to win.
Posted by manwich
You've wanted my
Member since Oct 2008
52601 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 11:25 am to
quote:

We all know the Darkstar=Ned; bound to seek revenge.
we know nothing, jrod snow
Posted by jrodLSUke
Premium
Member since Jan 2011
22044 posts
Posted on 6/20/13 at 11:30 am to
quote:

What's your reasoning on this?

Keep in mind that that I am treating this a pure prophesy. It appears as if others may view the quoted passage above as if it were a flashback; a moment in the past depicting a conversation between Rhaegar and Elia. But I don't read it that way, rather I see this as information being transferred from Rhaegar to Dany.

Therefore, Aegon is the obvious choice, as he is named as one of the 3HotD in the prophesy.

The not-so-subtle choice is Dany, as Rhaegar shifts the conversation from his wife and speaks directly to Dany.

quote:

He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

With Rhaegar's next statement telling Dany that she is one of the 3HotD; the third being unknown. Rhaenys is simply not part of the equation. And this gets confirmed in one of GRRM's Q&A's, as he plainly states that Rhaenys is dead but would not confirm nor deny the death of Aegon.

Jon is a way more complicated; but appears to be a consensus pick as a HotD.
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