Soccer player banned for life for Nazi salute(he claims it wasn't)
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re: Soccer player banned for life for Nazi salute(he claims it wasn't)
Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 4:29 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

I don't know how you can separate the Nazi imagery from Nazi atrocities.



How do you separate American imagery from American atrocities? Should we not do away with the American flag then? And any military and state oriented traditions that preceded the abolition of slavery and any other "atrocities" in our past?

Are you really this dense?



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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/17 at 4:30 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

Its part of the NAzi persona. The Salute, the swastika, the SS symbol.

the nazis and SS are 2 different animals

and when talking about the salute itself, this guy had nothing to do with the holocaust



quote:

They are all part of nazism and are completely linked to the holocaust.

unless they're fascist and linked to Mussolini

and even if it is linked to the Nazis, not many Nazis dealt with the holocaust, and the salute occurred before the holocaust occurred




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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:31 pm to ChewyDante
quote:

How do you separate American imagery from American atrocities? Should we not do away with the American flag then? And any military and state oriented traditions that preceded the abolition of slavery and any other "atrocities" in our past?

Are you really this dense?


Because america has done other things besides commit atrocities. There are things to actually separate the bad from. There is really no good in the Nazi reign.



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Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 4:32 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

Because america has done other things besides commit atrocities. There are things to actually separate the bad from. There is really no good in the Nazi reign.





So yes, you really are this dense. Gotcha.



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Posted by foshizzle on 3/17 at 4:33 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

There is a difference between the black power solute, and the nazi salute.


It's a little more complicated than that. From the Wiki article:

quote:

International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Avery Brundage deemed it to be a domestic political statement unfit for the apolitical, international forum the Olympic Games were supposed to be. In an immediate response to their actions, he ordered Smith and Carlos suspended from the U.S. team and banned from the Olympic Village. When the US Olympic Committee refused, Brundage threatened to ban the entire US track team. This threat led to the two athletes being expelled from the Games.


So it wasn't the USOC doing it. But here's an interesting twist:

quote:

Brundage, who was president of the United States Olympic Committee in 1936, had made no objections against Nazi salutes during the Berlin Olympics. He argued that the Nazi salute, being a national salute at the time, was acceptable in a competition of nations, while the athletes' salute was not of a nation and therefore unacceptable. Brundage had been one of the United States' most prominent Nazi sympathisers even after the outbreak of the Second World War,[10] and his removal as president of the IOC had been one of the three stated objectives of the Olympic Project for Human Rights.


However, the rest of the article notes that although they weren't banned from anything (one of the two went on to play in the NFL) they were "largely ostracized".



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:33 pm to ChewyDante
quote:



So yes, you really are this dense. Gotcha.


Really came back on that one. I am sorry please tell me what you think of when you see Nazi imagery.



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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/17 at 4:37 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

please tell me what you think of when you see Nazi imagery.

initially successful, but ultimately (and not shockingly) failing totalitarianism



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

and even if it is linked to the Nazis, not many Nazis dealt with the holocaust, and the salute occurred before the holocaust occurred


This isn't a history discussion it is a discussion on perception. Like i said earlier you don't think Charlie Chaplin when you see a Hitler Mustache.



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:38 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

initially successful, but ultimately (and not shockingly) failing totalitarianism


I am now wondering if that involves the rape of Europe and the murdering of millions of civilians.



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Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 4:42 pm to SammyTiger
You can't even acknowledge the hypocrisy and inconsistency of your own argument. You obviously can't get beyond linking any and everything that may have been affiliated with Nazism to be a representation of the Holocaust, which is child like and laughable. You are free to "think of" whatever you want when you see "Nazi imagery," but it really doesn't mean shite to others what your own personal, emotional reaction is to it. It sounds like you have a very narrow and naive perspective of anything relating to "Nazism" or right wing movements.




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Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 4:45 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

This isn't a history discussion it is a discussion on perception.


This is the entire problem of trying to have a rational discussion with you. You are only interested in pushing the supremacy of your own personal "perception" and not historical fact. Apparently you can't get over the fact that others don't share your "perception." You don't get to arbitrarily define what other symbols, expressions, etc. mean to others. That's bordering on narcissism.



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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/17 at 4:46 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

This isn't a history discussion it is a discussion on perception.

you're full of a perception bias called Reductio ad Hitlerum



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:50 pm to ChewyDante
quote:

This is the entire problem of trying to have a rational discussion with you. You are only interested in pushing the supremacy of your own personal "perception" and not historical fact. Apparently you can't get over the fact that others don't share your "perception." You don't get to arbitrarily define what other symbols, expressions, etc. mean to others. That's bordering on narcissism.


I am not saying everyone, but i believe the vast majority agrees with me. The discussion wasn't one weather the Nazi Salute was solely used by the Nazis. It was about weather or not the Nazi salute is commonly perceived as a symbol of Nazism. Just like the Swastika is a positive symbol in the east, and was perceived commonly as a eastern symbol, after WW2 it is symbolically linked with Nazism, and their evil. The only people who disagree with this tend to be 1. people of eastern religions 2 white supremacists who are covering their own asses.



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:56 pm to ChewyDante
So far you have made no actually statement, only insulting me and my point of view. Do you believe that this isn't perceived as a symbol of nazism. If so how do you separate nazism form everything they stood for and perpetrated.


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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 4:58 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

you're full of a perception bias called Reductio ad Hitlerum


haha i am not comparing any of you to hitler. I mean except Carrolton but that has a lot of background to it and I legitimately think he hates jews.

I am comparing NAzi's to hitler, and NAzi imagery to hitler. That isn't irrational.



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Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 5:00 pm to SammyTiger
I think any continuing effort to have a reason based discussion with you is futile since you are clearly only interested in pushing your "perception." And then you proclaim that to disagree with your "perception" is to essentially out yourself as a "white supremacist." You are not worth wasting any more time trying to have an honest and mature discussion with.


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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/17 at 5:03 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

i am not comparing any of you to hitler

not us, but you are doing this with certain actions/items



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 5:04 pm to ChewyDante
quote:

I think any continuing effort to have a reason based discussion with you is futile since you are clearly only interested in pushing your "perception." And then you proclaim that to disagree with your "perception" is to essentially out yourself as a "white supremacist." You are not worth wasting any more time trying to have an honest and mature discussion with.


i don't think you've started a discussion with me. You jumped in called me dense, and then said i am a hypocrite and I am immature. YOu didn't really offer many opinions are even a rhetorical argument other than i am pushing my perception. OF course i am. its my opinion on the matter and i believe the opinion of most people.



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Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 5:04 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

So far you have made no actually statement, only insulting me and my point of view.


No, I've absolutely made "statements" that directly challenged your "point of view." Perhaps you saw fit to simply discount them or try and refute them by saying that it's all about perception.

quote:

Do you believe that this isn't perceived as a symbol of nazism.


Why on Earth would I care what some people "perceive" it as? That doesn't make it true. I'm more concerned with truth personally. Obviously you are not.

quote:

If so how do you separate nazism form everything they stood for and perpetrated.


You keep asking the same ridiculous questions which have already been addressed. I'm not running around in circles with you on such an irrelevant question.



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Posted by ChewyDante on 3/17 at 5:08 pm to SammyTiger
quote:

You jumped in called me dense, and then said i am a hypocrite and I am immature.


Yep, that's all I did.

You're really just making my argument for me. And that you think saying "haha I'm not comparing any of you to Hitler" is somehow a legitimate addressing to SlowFloPro's post shows that you are struggling to understand other people's arguments or you intentionally deflecting. It's pretty frustrating to converse with someone consistently demonstrating this characteristic and at some point you recognize that the conversation simply isn't going to progress.



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