"Student loan forgiveness" and rich people who want welfare
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re: "Student loan forgiveness" and rich people who want welfare
Posted by jclem11 on 3/16 at 4:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

i believe people should be punished for bad decisions


I completely agree. We must stop subsidizing shitty decisions. As long as we are subsidizing shitty decision making we should not be surprised at the outcomes.



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Posted by moneyg on 3/16 at 4:40 pm to Powerman
She is a liberal...same as you.


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Posted by Freauxzen on 3/16 at 4:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

at this point any sympathy is lost


Except there is a massive problem with the valuation of a degree and communicating that effectively.

Most states look down on a University of Phoenix degree. Somehow, in Arizona, it's actually quite respected.

A degree from Northwestern State, won't get you anything outside of Louisiana.

A degree from the University of Wisconsin Madison, one of the top public schools in the country, won't get you jack in Louisiana.

It's a mess because.....

quote:

are we talking about degrees or social prestige?



Prestige is EVERYTHING in a degree. Most people see two things on a degree:

1. The major
2. The place of origin

That's it. And they make a judgement call based on that.

Your assumption is that prestige doesn't matter, but it does.

A person with a Degree in English from Harvard is going to have a much easier time getting a general business job (even) than a person with a degree from Northwestern State in Business Management.

That's the truth.

On the flip side, someone with an Engineering degree from Sam Houston State is probably seen as more valuable than someone with an English degree from the University of Georgia. And that's also equally ridiculous.

The problem with the question of prestige is that we now use degrees, schools, majors, to judge people more than their personality, skill set, etc. when evaluating for employment.

Businesses WANT degrees to be job training. And they aren't, but we treat them as such.

quote:

in this day and age, with all the information available, that's bull shite

even when i was in undergrad, people knew the economic difference in an engineering and english degree


And the only time this should be seen as the correct assessment is when you have two jobs, an engineering job and a job teaching English. Outside of that, and for any other position, these majors should be neutral in effect.

quote:

like i said in the social security thread, i believe people should be punished for bad decisions


Education is a different beast and we shouldn't be treating it like credit, home purchases etc. I'll agree people need to be punished for bad decisions, but saying an education is a bad decision is the problem.

The difference between an education, and other large investments or credit issues, is that education isn't returnable, resalable, or fixable. It isn't a black hole of investment that only pays itself back, and only to the original party, over time.

A house can be sold back, maybe at a loss. If you rack up credit debt, you can sell your goods to pay it off. If you get in over head with a car, sell it back?

What do you do if you waste time and effort on a degree only to get something that isn't worth the investment? How are you going to speculate 8 years out to know that you can get a return on what you make?

Anyone else remember the ISDS debacle of 2003ish?

You can't do ANYTHING with a mistake made in education except suck it up, and it can set you back years.

Hell, it IS setting people back years.



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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/16 at 4:47 pm to Freauxzen
quote:

This all points to SFP's comments that:

If you spent money on an English degree, it was a bad decision.

from an economic perspective, it is

quote:

We should be curbing Niche degrees, NOT classic degrees.

who is "we" ?

most industry wants skill/training based degrees, and for good reason. and it's not just any skill/training, but only applicable skills/training for that particular industry. such is life, and that can't change

quote:

And we should ALSO be CELEBRATING diversity of opinion and knowledge, not stifling it.

it's more about supply and demand. outside of the specialized/skill jobs, there are a number of jobs that require a degree...any degree. there are so many people with degrees, it doesn't make a difference



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Posted by Freauxzen on 3/16 at 4:56 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

from an economic perspective, it is


But it shouldn't be. College isn't job training.

quote:

who is "we" ?


People. Culture is the problem, see the other rant of mine.

quote:

most industry wants skill/training based degrees, and for good reason. and it's not just any skill/training, but only applicable skills/training for that particular industry. such is life, and that can't change


What are the good reasons to limiting or skill pool and treating college like job training?

quote:

it's more about supply and demand. outside of the specialized/skill jobs, there are a number of jobs that require a degree...any degree. there are so many people with degrees, it doesn't make a difference


Yes and No.



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Posted by Powerman on 3/16 at 5:00 pm to WeeWee
quote:


SO what do you want 50,000 links discussing the pros and cons of higher vs lower interest rates of student loans? You brought one person's opinion into the thread and I'm giving you mine.

And your opinion is that it would be beneficial for tuition to be higher because people might study more

That's just silly. College is already very costly.



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Posted by tigerskin on 3/16 at 5:01 pm to Powerman
I have yet to meet an Ivy League grad that has impressed me. Especially regarding work ethic. I am sure there are some out there but all the ones I have dealt with personally have an entitlement mentality.


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Posted by Powerman on 3/16 at 5:03 pm to tigerskin
I've met a few very impressive Ivy League grads but I have also met a lot of the entitled types you speak of


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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/16 at 5:03 pm to Freauxzen
quote:

Except there is a massive problem with the valuation of a degree and communicating that effectively.

if you're talking about how people believe others will perceive them, i lose all sympathy

it's the same as a person leasing a BMW 3-series and fricking up their credit b/c they can't be seen in a honda

frick em

quote:

A degree from Northwestern State, won't get you anything outside of Louisiana.

i have a friend who got a job working IT in Atlanta directly out of NSU, so that's not true

my sister has plenty of friends who she graduated with who have any number of jobs

and i know dozens of people who graduated with degrees from McNeese who went to Texas and got good jobs all over

quote:

A degree from the University of Wisconsin Madison, one of the top public schools in the country, won't get you jack in Louisiana.

why not? that's WAY overgeneralizing

quote:

Prestige is EVERYTHING in a degree.

perhaps super specialized degrees in super specialized industries

there is a large mass of jobs that just require a degree...any degree. origin/area of study doesn't matter

quote:

On the flip side, someone with an Engineering degree from Sam Houston State is probably seen as more valuable than someone with an English degree from the University of Georgia. And that's also equally ridiculous.

are we talking about engineering/science related jobs or what? of course it would be more valuable for those industries

quote:

Businesses WANT degrees to be job training. And they aren't,

that depends on the degree

quote:

Education is a different beast and we shouldn't be treating it like credit, home purchases etc. I'll agree people need to be punished for bad decisions, but saying an education is a bad decision is the problem.

i never said an education was a bad idea

foolishly borrowing loads of money to pay for an education can be foolish

like i said, you can get an education without going into loads of debt. you can get a fricking education for free nowadays. are you talking about education or economic opportunities?

quote:

What do you do if you waste time and effort on a degree only to get something that isn't worth the investment? How are you going to speculate 8 years out to know that you can get a return on what you make?

you don't have to borrow to pay for it. work, save up, and then pay for it. it's still an investment, but it's not a debilitating credit-debt scenario

quote:

Anyone else remember the ISDS debacle of 2003ish?



i had friends who got ISDS degrees and similar IT degrees



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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/16 at 5:06 pm to Freauxzen
quote:

College isn't job training.

that depends on the degree/industry

quote:

What are the good reasons to limiting or skill pool and treating college like job training?

to have a better educated/trained field of job candidates for that field



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Posted by Freauxzen on 3/16 at 5:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:

if you're talking about how people believe others will perceive them, i lose all sympathy


It has nothing to do with belief, that's how it is.

quote:

i have a friend who got a job working IT in Atlanta directly out of NSU, so that's not true

my sister has plenty of friends who she graduated with who have any number of jobs

and i know dozens of people who graduated with degrees from McNeese who went to Texas and got good jobs all over


Of course people graduated, received degrees and are doing fine. There are plenty of them.

We also are also sitting in the highest unemployment for sub-35 in a long long time, partly for these reasons.

Everyone isn't unemployed. How well they are employed is part of the problem (and again, Louisiana is an anomaly in terms of cost), which is the issue in this thread.

quote:

why not? that's WAY overgeneralizing


Just like you have examples, so do I. A few people I know with good degrees, UW-Madison, UVa, Purdue sit jobless, at no fault of their own.

quote:

perhaps super specialized degrees in super specialized industries

there is a large mass of jobs that just require a degree...any degree. origin/area of study doesn't matter


Not true. Not even close.

Everyone wants a specialized degree now, even when there's no chance in hell it should matter.

quote:

are we talking about engineering/science related jobs or what? of course it would be more valuable for those industries


No, see the other statement from the other reply. Outside of specifically engineering and specifically English Teacher jobs, an Engineering and English degree should be seen as equal, and they aren't.

quote:

that depends on the degree


It's not the point of college, or at least it shouldn't be. That's been corrupted by everyone involved, which is part of the personal investment problem.

People shouldn't go to college Expecting a job. And people hiring shouldn't be expecting a specific degree.

quote:

i never said an education was a bad idea

foolishly borrowing loads of money to pay for an education can be foolish

like i said, you can get an education without going into loads of debt. you can get a fricking education for free nowadays. are you talking about education or economic opportunities?

quote:

quote:
What do you do if you waste time and effort on a degree only to get something that isn't worth the investment? How are you going to speculate 8 years out to know that you can get a return on what you make?


you don't have to borrow to pay for it. work, save up, and then pay for it. it's still an investment, but it's not a debilitating credit-debt scenario


I know you think very realistically and by the book about these things, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You're also placing your worldview on that of others. Congratulations, you saw through the bull shite. Have a slap on the back.

Of course having to borrow tons of money to do anything without proper intelligence of ROI is foolish. That's obvious.

If everyone could run the calculations on job opportunity, on how businesses will respond, on inflation, industry evaluation, Total cost of a degree, some arbitrary rating on value vs. happiness and personal interest, and then in the end write up a strategic plan on a degree potential and earning, and make a decision based on all of those factors, the world would be a better place.

But even if you did ALL of that, people still have to deal with the mentality behind learning and earning, the mantra they have been bred to sing since they grew up, AND the expectations of everyone around them.

Being so cutthroat about that is a little unnerving, especially when, at least kids in a specific range and age/group, grew up with a lot of issues and problems around it. That's my argument.

At the base level, I won't disagree, it's an investment and can be a poor one. I just think looking at the base level in this instance is misguided and wrong. Education is different, for everyone, and that's really the issue.



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Posted by los angeles tiger on 3/17 at 1:39 pm to Freauxzen
quote:

People shouldn't go to college Expecting a job.


True.

quote:

And people hiring shouldn't be expecting a specific degree.



False. The owner of a business can do as he chooses and should not be dictated to by people like you. The type of attitude being displayed in your statement is unnerving.


quote:

No, see the other statement from the other reply. Outside of specifically engineering and specifically English Teacher jobs, an Engineering and English degree should be seen as equal, and they aren't.



Who are you to dictate such "equality" of degrees?


quote:

But even if you did ALL of that, people still have to deal with the mentality behind learning and earning, the mantra they have been bred to sing since they grew up, AND the expectations of everyone around them.



An 18 year old is an adult. You, as an adult, want others to be responsible for the decisions of other adults.


quote:

Being so cutthroat about that is a little unnerving, especially when, at least kids in a specific range and age/group, grew up with a lot of issues and problems around it. That's my argument.


Oh, grow up and stop whining. Your generation has had the easiest life of all Americans. Were you having to work like my dad did as a nine-year old kid during the Great Depression to help put food on the table. By food I mean simple things like beans and rice.



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Posted by RogerTheShrubber on 3/17 at 1:43 pm to jclem11
quote:

i believe people should be punished for bad decisions


I completely agree


I'd call it having to deal with the outcomes of their decisions. It's the only way many people learn.



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Posted by jclem11 on 3/17 at 1:56 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:


I'd call it having to deal with the outcomes of their decisions. It's the only way many people learn.


Yea. By punish, I mean have to suffer the consequences of their decisions and not get bailed out/forgiven in the case of student loans.



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Posted by SammyTiger on 3/17 at 2:17 pm to WeeWee
quote:

No that would limit the incentive to do better amd make
more money. BTW your friend is an educated dumbass if she thinks the government should pick up her debt.


There are always incentives to do that, but it does guarantee that smart successful law students wont being going into public interest fields.



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Posted by tylercsbn9 on 3/17 at 3:35 pm to Freauxzen
quote:

No, see the other statement from the other reply. Outside of specifically engineering and specifically English Teacher jobs, an Engineering and English degree should be seen as equal, and they aren't.


Why should they be seen as equal? That's dumb as shite. Should people with MD be value the same as someone with a PHD in African American studies or women's and gender studies?

Some degrees are more highly sought and valued more. What's wrong with that?

I abhor the entitlement and the subsidizing stupidity of my generation. No way and hell kids should get off the hook for student loans. People need too deal with the consequences of their actions.

My fiancé has 20k in student loan debt, but I'm not going to cry too the government to pay it off. It was a decision she made to better her life. And myself and her have to be responsible adults and pay the $220 a month. Se knew what she was getting into at 18. She knew what she signed up for as a poor, broke kid out of high school.


This post was edited on 3/17 at 3:41 pm

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Posted by Teddy Ruxpin on 3/17 at 3:39 pm to SammyTiger
I'm basically waiting on IBR repayments until my SO starts her firm job. Once her salary comes online and we start sharing expenses, we'll start tackling the debt. As of now I wouldn't be able to service the full repayment amount without living in a van down by the river, which sucks.

I'm in the pay it back group of people, however, I'm also an individualist so if my loan servicers decide to unilaterally change the terms to benefit me, then I'm taking advantage of that change of contract terms. Any "free economic" person should.



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Posted by thetempleowl on 3/17 at 4:48 pm to Teddy Ruxpin
What people really should be discussing is the absolutely ridiculous soaring cost of a college education.

The cost has way out paced inflation and standard cost of living expenses. And a huge reason for this is the ability to borrow money for just about any education.

The ability to borrow money has led to all colleges vying for students money. To do this they all build huge beautiful campuses, expensive dorms, etc all to attract students. No college cares about costs because students don't care about costs.

This is the problem.




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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/17 at 4:52 pm to Teddy Ruxpin
quote:

so if my loan servicers decide to unilaterally change the terms to benefit me, then I'm taking advantage of that change of contract terms. Any "free economic" person should.

any real "free economic" person knows that all you're doing is shifting the initial burden to another party, which will ultimately be born by you, indirectly.



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Posted by SlowFlowPro on 3/17 at 4:55 pm to thetempleowl
quote:

What people really should be discussing is the absolutely ridiculous soaring cost of a college education.

have we ever see an industry NOT have its good's price skyrocket when cheap credit was available for its purchase?

getting tough on loan repayments, increasing interest rates, and making getting loans more burdensome to receive will reduce the cost of education. that's a good thing for everyone, basically

quote:

No college cares about costs because students don't care about costs.


yup

it's the same with healthcare

quote:

To do this they all build huge beautiful campuses, expensive dorms, etc all to attract students

that's a drop in the bucket compared to annual bureaucratic and teaching costs



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