Help settle a work debate, greatest heavyweight boxers
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re: Help settle a work debate, greatest heavyweight boxers
Posted by bomber77 on 12/13 at 7:19 pm to TheOcean
+ infinity


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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/13 at 7:22 pm to GeauxJookCity
quote:

Who ever says Ali is over rated is crazy. The dude didn't even get to fight in his prime. Tie between Ali and Tyson, Lewis is up there too though.


He was in his prime in those fights before he was forced to stop. The Williams fight, the Folley fight, the Chuvalo fight, the Terrell fight. That was a man at the very peak of his powers. Who could do very little wrong in the ring.

Go watch that Zora Foley fight. Ali's entire strategy is to stay relatively close to Foley and wait for him to jab. And then avoid that jab by leaning backwards -- a move no other prominent boxer has ever even tried to pull off -- and then would immediately throw a right hand lead meant as a knock-out punch.

Think about that for a second. Think about how quickly jabs are thrown. To avoid a thrown jab by leaning back and then hitting your opponent with a straight right hand before the guy has even finished pulling the missed jab back to his face.

1. That is quite possibly the most fundamentally unsound maneuver a boxer could ever try.

2. Only a historically elite athlete like Ali had the ability to land a counterpunch in that fashion.

3. To actually use that counterpunch as an affirmative strategy is just mindblowing. He did it agaisnt Cleveland Williams as well. And those guys were the top contenders at the time. They weren't tomato cans, and yet Ali literally toyed with them like I might toy with my four year old nephew when I shadow box around with him.

My point here is that I think it is incorrect that Ali never reached his prime. I think he did, but I just would have loved to see three or four more years of it, because that guy fighting was poetry in motion.



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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/13 at 7:27 pm to TheOcean
quote:

Please stop saying pre-ban ali. Please, please, please.


No thanks, it works just fine. I'm not the only one who uses the term. SI coined it initially when defining the greatest athletes of the century.



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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/13 at 7:30 pm to VABuckeye
quote:

That fight was fought in high heat and humidity. Tyson would have wilted under those conditions and punched himself out. He never fought in a fight that remotely approached those conditions


So because Tyson never fought in the heat and humidity of that day in Manilla, that means he would have lost the fight?

Great logic. So by extension, every fighter in history would have lost that fight.



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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/13 at 7:30 pm to bomber77
quote:

In his short prime he would have beat Tyson to a pulp.


I agree with this.



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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/13 at 7:36 pm to bobbyray21
Boxers who might have beaten Tyson in his prime:

Definitely:
pre-ban Ali
Young Foreman

Possibly:
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis

Boxers who would have been destroyed by Tyson in his prime:
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Marciano
post-ban Ali




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Posted by TheOcean on 12/13 at 7:37 pm to bobbyray21
You know a thread is miserable when bobbyray responds to himself


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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/13 at 7:54 pm to TheOcean
quote:

You know a thread is miserable when bobbyray responds to himself


Nothing is more miserable than the man who continually posts in a thread only to say the thread sucks.*

If it sucks that bad, then surely you have something else you could do with your time? Call your girlfriend? Er..never mind. How about fapping to some porn? Yes I'm sure you'd enjoy that much more than this thread, so scurry along and go grab some lotion.

_____________________
*And, to be clear, you have added nothing to this thread. You are a failure at both posting and in life.



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Posted by brgfather129 on 12/13 at 8:53 pm to bobbyray21
quote:


I'm failing to follow you here.


Clearly.

quote:

So taking a guy at his very best makes the analysis subjective?


I think you should look up the definition of subjective and report back.

quote:


No, a fighter should be considered a top 5 heavyweight of all time if, at his best, he was one of the five best heavyweights of all time.


Tyson wasn't, by any objective measure. Sorry.

quote:

including Larry Holmes




You know you're grasping at straws when you tout a victory against a 38 year old coming off nearly two years of inactivity and back-to-back losses. You can keep digging though.


This post was edited on 12/13 at 8:54 pm

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Posted by samson73103 on 12/13 at 9:46 pm to Sterling Archer
Marciano
Tyson
Holmes



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Posted by bomber77 on 12/14 at 2:36 pm to bobbyray21
quote:

Boxers who would have been destroyed by Tyson in his prime:
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Marciano
post-ban Ali


Frazier would have beat him imo.

Joe Louis would have beat Tyson, Joe is probably the greatest HW of all time.

He would have beat Marciano just because of size.

Post Ban Ali (I hate that I just used this phrase) would have beat Tyson handily. He was way too smart a fighter. If his rope a dope worked on a beast like Foreman you dont think it would have worked on Tyson?

Tyson was basically a 3 round slugger who happened to fight during a time with NO competition. His best win was against a 38 year old Larry Holmes.

Smart, well conditioned pros like Ali, Frazier, Lewis would have beat him. Hell, Buster Douglas knocked him into the next world. Holyfield?

Tyson is not even top 10 in my book. I think Sonny Liston beats him.



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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/20 at 2:15 am to brgfather129
quote:

I think you should look up the definition of subjective and report back.


Cute response that accomplished nothing.


quote:

Tyson wasn't, by any objective measure. Sorry.


This coming from the guy who employs the following analysis.

quote:

Bottom line, in order to be considered one of the top 5 heavyweights of all-time (let alone top 3), you need to actually have defeated someone of note in the ring


"of note", huh? Sounds super duper objective.

How about this, under the standard of "best in their absolute prime", list the top 5 heavyweights for me.



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Posted by bobbyray21 on 12/20 at 2:21 am to bomber77
quote:

Joe Louis would have beat Tyson, Joe is probably the greatest HW of all time.


Mike Tyson would have completely manhandled Joe Louis. The fight wouldn't have gone past two rounds.

I'll accept your argument for post-ban Ali -- I'm sorry that I made you use that phrase -- as reasonable, but for the first three I posted, I just don't see a case can be made.

My thoughts on Frazier/Tyson have aleady been posted.

Sonny Liston is an interesting case. Nobody really knows how good he was. Clay just so completely and comprehensively dismantled him that it puts a serious damper on his legacy.



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