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 Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian RantI know that it has been talked about here already as Dan Savage, at the anti-bullying conference attacked Christianity, the Bible, and Christian teens for walking out of his profanity laced tirade against the teachings of the Bible on homosexuality. But, the articles and opinions on it keep coming. Here is one by John Shore of the Huffington Post: LINK Shore says in Savage's defense, quote: Here is where Savage is wrong: 1. Laws against eating shellfish were Jewish dietary laws not followed by Christians. But, Orthodox, Kosher Jews still follow them today. They had a specific purpose at the time, however, one that Savage is obvlivious too. These dietary laws were completely overturned by Christianity as any reading of Acts 10 or Galatians will clearly show. 2. Laws related to stoning adulterers were related to the Theocracy that was Israel as the Jews, as the people of God, maintained moral and liturgical purity as opposed to the surrounding nations. They did this to maintain a strong witness to the surrounding nations as to the moral and ethical stance of Jehovah regarding human sexuality. Jesus ended this practice in John 8 when he told those about to stone the woman caught in adultery that those without sin could cast the first stone. Of course, none of us are without sin so none of us should be stoning anyone. 3. Homosexuality is condemned repeatedly throughout Scripture as a sexual perversion and abomination. Romans 1 is clear on this. But, adultery, fornication, and all forms of sexual impurity as also condemned as sin. It is part of the sexual ethic of Scripture that transcends time and place, so it stands - as opposed to Jewish dietary laws and stoning adulterers under the theocracy that was Israel. 4. As for persecution of homosexuals, Jesus commanded his followers to pray for their enemies, love their enemies, and bless those who persecute you. He commanded that we turn the other cheek and not engage in violence. So, any persecution of homosexuals or bullying of them is absolutely condemned by Scripture as well. If saying that the behavior is sin according to God's moral law hurts people's feelings, that really can't be helped. 5. As for his mention of slavery, pro-raced based slavery advocates were wrong to use Scripture as a defense. Slavery in Biblical times was completely different from race-based slavery in the United States in the 1800's. Christian teaching on the subject illustrated in passages like Philemon do not advocate race-based slavery at all, and followed closely actually turn the race-based system of slavery on its head. Plus, the cultural expression of slavery was far different then than what we think of today. It was the basic form of employment for the majority of people and freedom was possible. Plus, you have to add in passages like Genesis 1:26-28 and Galatians 3:26-28 to see that all people are created in the image of God and that is Christ, we are all equal. The Bible also clearly proscribes charity and economic equality in many passages, Acts 2:42-47 and 2 Corinthians 8-9 just to name a few. It seems that the stance of the homosexual community, at least according to people like Dan Savage, is to obliterate all opposition to their lifestyle. He is completely ignorant of what Christianity teaches and his use of the Bible is asinine. The Bible was written over the course of 2000 years and certain passages applied to certain times and situations culturally speaking. But, the things that show up over and over again regarding moral law are the things that stand. I have no desire to persecute homosexuals. But, Dan Savage is either completely ignorant about what the Bible actually teaches and what Christian doctrine is, or he is a liar. The way forward is for homosexuals to acknowledge that Christians will never approve of their behavior. At the same time, Christians should not persecute homosexuals with violence or other attacks because that is also condemned as well. Dan Savage, besides acting like an idiot in front of high school students, is also completely wrong. Reply • Back to Top |
| You give his ridiculous assertions too much attention, in my opinion. They guy is a sick, twisted, bully. His rant had nothing to do with any actual teachings in the Bible and had everything to do with his hatred for anyone that disagrees with him. Reply • Back to Top |
| just so we're clear.. slavery is OK by the bible as long as it's not race-based? Where does it say that? I remember the book talking about how to treat your slaves once you have them, but never which criteria one should take into account when owning persons. Reply • Back to Top |
| I don't think he said that. He was saying that those using the Bible to justify slavery were wrong because it the two types were different. Reply • Back to Top |
quote: No. It does not say that. It takes what is and regulates it and then slowly undermines it through its view on the sanctity of human life. The Bible talks about how to treat slaves and how you should free slaves at certain times. It does not advocate a wholesale, straightforward abolition of slavery as the critics of the Bible demand. However, the abolition of slavery was based on Scripture as its teachings dismantle the underlying ethic of slavery piece by piece. It is a nuanced argument that someone like Savage seems incapable of understanding. Or, he just refuses to understand it. This post was edited on 4/30 at 1:47 pm Reply • Back to Top |
| Why do Christians care about the sinfulness of gays while at the same time they shave their beards?? I say go all-in or not at all. Reply • Back to Top |
Posted by magildachunks on 4/30 at 1:48 pm to AlaTiger quote: Or...you are wrong. Reply • Back to Top |
quote:when does nuance become mental gymnastics? Reply • Back to Top |
quote: Or William Wilberforce and the entire abolitionist movement was wrong to use the Bible as their foundation and justification? Slavery in ancient times was the way of employment. Scripture does not eliminate slavery but rather regulates it out of existence. This is why slavery was abolished throughout Christendom during the Middle Ages and did not reappear again until the New World was discovered and race-based slavery emerged as a way to acquire cheap labor. Racist theory emerged along with it to justify it. Then, the Christians went to work on that too, having it outlawed by the 1800's all over the world. Here is the deal: Christians have used the Bible to stand against and abolish slavery for hundreds of years. Dan Savage with a pro-gay agenda is not going to tear down that legacy in a few moments of misusing the Bible. The entire history of the abolition movement in England and America and in other parts of the world uses the Bible as its foundation. You cannot change that. Reply • Back to Top |
Posted by magildachunks on 4/30 at 2:00 pm to AlaTiger quote: It wasn't abolished in the middle ages. They just called it fiefdoms. You can dance around the issue all you want, but serfs were slaves. They were not allowed to move past their lot in life. It wasn't until capitalism and the free market began to emerge that a person could advance his lot in life. Also: you should do more research into slavery. Many slaves were able to buy their freedom and become successful businessmen. It happened all over. And, blacks were not the only slaves, and usually those who were slaves were not allowed to do any dangerous work. The owners would usually hire an irishman to do the dangerous stuff. This post was edited on 4/30 at 2:05 pm Reply • Back to Top |
quote: If it is mental gymnastics to understand that 1. All people are made in God's image 2. We are not to do violence to people 3. We are not to steal from others 4. We are to give our possessions and lay our life down for others 5. In Christ, we are all free and there is no difference between people based on race, sex, or social/economic position (including slave/free) 6. What matters is the new creation - what Christ has established 7. We should treat everyone as we want to be treated 8. We should love others sacrificially, even those who are our enemies If it takes mental gymnastics to understand that, then that is a problem. Those teachings undermined and obliterated slavery everywhere that they were followed. The teaching of the Bible are like a mustard-seed and yeast and light and salt - they don't take over and establish themselves through force. They turn society upside down. There were a lot of socio-political-economic injustices that Jesus and the writers of the New Testament either did not address or did not overturn directly - but, their ethic did. Reply • Back to Top |
quote: Reply • Back to Top |
quote: Yes, and there were lots of injustices throughout history. I know. My point is that the Bible, especially in the New Testament, sets up an ethic that tears all of those injustices down - if followed. People have not followed it, however. quote: Yes, and the first slaveowner was a black man. I know all of this. But, the thrust behind slavery was race-based in America from the early 1700's on. Reply • Back to Top |
| You're missing the bigger picture here. You have allowed the discussion about a bully at an anti-bullying rally to be turned to approval of slavery in the Bible. The New Testament, and the instructions within it, was not written to set up and kind of government or set of laws. The Romans controlled the region at that time and were not changing the laws concerning slavery. The instructions in the NT were meant as a way to live at that time, with that culture, as a follower of Christ. That is the simple message, no mental gymnastics needed. Reply • Back to Top |
quote: How is this mental gymnastics? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Love your neighbor as you love yourself? Love your enemy. Give to all who ask you. A simple application of the Sermon on the Mount would overturn slavery everywhere it was followed. The Kingdom of God is within - it is not a political kingdom. This isn't really hard to understand. Reply • Back to Top |
quote: No, I am actually willing to take on that accusation and attempt to explain it which you do nicely below: quote: Reply • Back to Top |
quote: and where does the concerted effort to maintain a legal contract system that excludes homosexuals fit into that? This post was edited on 4/30 at 2:21 pm Reply • Back to Top |
Posted by magildachunks on 4/30 at 2:21 pm to AlaTiger quote: What if you hate yourself? quote: So, we should not have gone to war against the Nazis, Japan, or gone after Al Queda(sp?)? quote: You have a problem with taxes or street beggars? Do you always give money to whoever asks of you? If so, I could use money for my rent. quote: I want them to leave me the alone. Yet, they will not. Always telling me how I should live my life, what I should do, etc. Reply • Back to Top |
| But again, the larger point is that not only was Dan Savage acting as a bully, but he is even completely wrong about the facts regarding the Bible. He is right about one thing, however. If homosexuality is going to be approved of by everyone, then no one can believe the Bible and Christianity. It is clear that that is his goal. Reply • Back to Top |
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