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Message
re: Lawfare: how is this defined, and how can it be (legally) stopped?
Posted on 4/27/24 at 6:30 am to SCLibertarian
Posted on 4/27/24 at 6:30 am to SCLibertarian
quote:
Whatever you may think of Trump,
Not just Trump.
Navarro
Stone
Bannon
Actions taken against individuals on only one side of the aisle for conduct where Eric Holder was untouched. Not to mention the full-blown HRT takedown of Stone (that just so happened to be live on CNN).
SFP, we don't agree on a lot, but your insistence lawfare does not exist is intellectually dishonest.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 6:58 am to SlowFlowPro
I get where you are coming from in terms of creating a settled or even a generally accepted clear definition. But, I would say that most of the posters, and probably even yourself see it as using the legal system to pursue things that otherwise should be inherently political.....or legislative.
As a society we have opted for gridlock at the federal level. For good or bad that is what we have dealt ourselves. As such, politically, consensus escapes us. Because we cannot come to consensus, both sides try to grasp for any advantage, sort of like trench warfare in WW I where we expend money and resources to great amounts to get a minimal advantage. Enter the use of of existing law as a surrogate for political and legislative action.
There's no agreed upon definition because it's mostly a reflexive thing. But generally the statutes used to engage in it have legitimacy and the accusations or indictments are grounded in a modicum of legitimacy as well. Example, Did Trump have Cohen pay hush money to Daniels (Clifford)? Yeah, probably. Have her sign an NDA? We have evidence of it. Is it on its face illegal? No. Was it done for political cover and insurance? Absolutely. Do politicians do this at least semi regularly? One would assume so. Could there be campaign finance violations.? Minimally, yes.
AHA!!! So there is a crime!!! Egregious corruption of the law! We are a nation of laws, not of men! We cannot let this stand.....lest the public finds out that so many in the political arena engage in this walking of a legal tightrope regularly. You saw it with Clinton, you saw it with Trump and Russia .
It's the new almost generally accepted way of expanding politics into the legal arena. If a person you really don't like is a big threat at the ballot box, you pull out all the stops to block him. Use the law to hinder your opponent at every turn.
It used to be that lawfare, if you want to call it that, to an extent was used to hinder policy or the enactment of new laws. Generally used for political gain. Hey I don't like a policy or new law, let's shop and see if we can find a sympathetic circuit like the Fifth or the Ninth and either delay it's implementation or overturn it.
This new way is troubling, and both sides use it. It is a political abuse of the legal system.
As a society we have opted for gridlock at the federal level. For good or bad that is what we have dealt ourselves. As such, politically, consensus escapes us. Because we cannot come to consensus, both sides try to grasp for any advantage, sort of like trench warfare in WW I where we expend money and resources to great amounts to get a minimal advantage. Enter the use of of existing law as a surrogate for political and legislative action.
There's no agreed upon definition because it's mostly a reflexive thing. But generally the statutes used to engage in it have legitimacy and the accusations or indictments are grounded in a modicum of legitimacy as well. Example, Did Trump have Cohen pay hush money to Daniels (Clifford)? Yeah, probably. Have her sign an NDA? We have evidence of it. Is it on its face illegal? No. Was it done for political cover and insurance? Absolutely. Do politicians do this at least semi regularly? One would assume so. Could there be campaign finance violations.? Minimally, yes.
AHA!!! So there is a crime!!! Egregious corruption of the law! We are a nation of laws, not of men! We cannot let this stand.....lest the public finds out that so many in the political arena engage in this walking of a legal tightrope regularly. You saw it with Clinton, you saw it with Trump and Russia .
It's the new almost generally accepted way of expanding politics into the legal arena. If a person you really don't like is a big threat at the ballot box, you pull out all the stops to block him. Use the law to hinder your opponent at every turn.
It used to be that lawfare, if you want to call it that, to an extent was used to hinder policy or the enactment of new laws. Generally used for political gain. Hey I don't like a policy or new law, let's shop and see if we can find a sympathetic circuit like the Fifth or the Ninth and either delay it's implementation or overturn it.
This new way is troubling, and both sides use it. It is a political abuse of the legal system.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:08 am to KiwiHead
quote:
Hey I don't like a policy or new law, let's shop and see if we can find a sympathetic circuit like the Fifth or the Ninth and either delay it's implementation or overturn it.
You don't see a difference between constitutional challenges and the bastardization of laws for politically targeted criminal prosecutions?
quote:
both sides try to grasp for any advantage
Please list the "lawfare" of the right...
There is no "both sides" here.
Other than Kyle Rittenhouse, BLM/Antifa suffered zero consequences for their 2020 rioting. Similarly, leftists that have OCCUPIED the Capitol routinely skirt prosecution. Yet, J6 "insurrectionists" languish in prison without trial, have received ridiculous sentences or are still being hunted down by the FBI to this day.
This is not a "both sides" issue. But, I suspect it is going to become one.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:09 am to udtiger
quote:
This is not a "both sides" issue. But, I suspect it is going to become one.
One can only hope.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:19 am to udtiger
I do see the problem and that is what I'm getting at. But Republicans are not innocent. Democrats just attempt to use it a lot more.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:27 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:It certainly should be.
Is lawfare litigation illegal?
quote:U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney has the right idea.
how can it be (legally) stopped?
Defendants "cannot be selected for prosecution because of their repugnant speech and beliefs over those who committed the same" offence.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:29 am to SCLibertarian
quote:
Imagine if a MTG-like prosecutor was elected and began to charge her political opposition with various crimes based on novel interpretations of the statutes at hand.
The only case of Trump's this even applies to is the NY case.
The GA, DC, and Florida cases don't involve any novel theories.
This is also why the NY case is regarded as by far the weakest one.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:29 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:
Are you this meticulous when questioning the left that you used to be a part of?
Yes
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:29 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:
Of course something can be legitimate and still lawfare.
I do not think that will be universally accepted.
The running meme is that lawfare is not legitimate.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:31 am to RobbBobb
quote:
Lawfare is very easily defined as Malicious Prosecution (also known as malicious use of process)
See, Reaxl? His starting point is illegitimacy.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:32 am to ninthward
quote:
Ok who was charged by a DA and brought up on criminal charges?
so lawfare can only be criminal?
I don't think that will be universally accepted, especially since the NY assets case was just referenced as an example of lawfare.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:34 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Lawfare is the targeted application of asymmetric legal contrivances
What is an "asymmetric legal contrivance"?
quote:
Beria defined its application succinctly when he said “Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.”
Again, this denotes illegitimacy.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:35 am to SlowFlowPro
It goes without saying that "lawfare" is a newfound term that is thrown around with varying definitions
You left these out. How can I start to evaluate this without properly defining what it is. Like define woman. If you leave out the biological context and go on belief, you need to understand the belief. You need to understand the definition of lawfare and provide one.
You left these out. How can I start to evaluate this without properly defining what it is. Like define woman. If you leave out the biological context and go on belief, you need to understand the belief. You need to understand the definition of lawfare and provide one.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:36 am to udtiger
quote:
SFP, we don't agree on a lot, but your insistence lawfare does not exist is intellectually dishonest.
There have been about 10 different definitions given in this thread.
I don't know which of the 10 I'm supposed to say exists.
Some focus on legitimacy, some focus on criminal, some focus on specific individuals, or an alleged political bias, or, even fuzzier terms like "corrupt judge/prosecutor" (ignoring the jury, I suppose, but I'm sure when pressed people will call them corrupt, too).
A malleable term can be anything or nothing.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:41 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Of course they do. The thesis that a sitting POTUS cannot exercise options under legal loopholes to challenge an election is absolutely "novel," and stupid. The idea that an ex-POTUS should be prosecuted by the DOJ for something "no reasonable prosecutor" would pursue is absolutely "novel," and dangerous.
The GA, DC, and Florida cases don't involve any novel theories.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:43 am to KiwiHead
quote:
But, I would say that most of the posters, and probably even yourself see it as using the legal system to pursue things that otherwise should be inherently political.....or legislative.
But a lot of these alleged lawfare scenarios are civil in nature.
quote:
It's the new almost generally accepted way of expanding politics into the legal arena.
But how new is this? One of the foundational cases in the canon of US precedent is Marbury v. Madison, which was this exact thing.
I mean this goes back to Rome. Julius Caesar only hung around Gaul so long to avoid this very same stuff.
quote:
It is a political abuse of the legal system.
This then goes into the "how can you fix it"?
Take the Rudy Giulliani defamation case. Generally accepted as lawfare. It's, at heart, a pretty straightforward defamation case. How do you fix it?
Giulliani admitted to the defamation, even, so then they peel back the layer and retreat to the "he couldn't afford to defend himself" layer. How do you fix that across all civil cases? I mean hell, Bob Menendez's wife is claiming she can't afford lawyers, too. Is that lawfare now?
It's just a meandering, malleable definition that changes for each situation, and then within the situation (the above Rudy layer peeling).
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:43 am to SlowFlowPro
It is beautiful outside. Grab your wife and go take a walk.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:44 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
It certainly should be.
How can you achieve this?
As a universal solution across criminal, civil, and administrative litigation.
quote:
U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney has the right idea.
Defendants "cannot be selected for prosecution because of their repugnant speech and beliefs over those who committed the same" offence.
So a whataboutism defense?
That's not going to work. BLM would EAT if that was the standard.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:46 am to themunch
quote:
You left these out.
Read the next sentence, bub
quote:
So can we give a universally agreed-upon definition of "lawfare"?
quote:
How can I start to evaluate this without properly defining what it is. L
Again, the next sentences.
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:47 am to SlowFlowPro
I have yet to see the universal definition in this thread and certainly not by you in the op. Thanks
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