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re: Lawfare: how is this defined, and how can it be (legally) stopped?

Posted on 4/27/24 at 6:30 am to
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
99031 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 6:30 am to
quote:

Whatever you may think of Trump,


Not just Trump.

Navarro
Stone
Bannon

Actions taken against individuals on only one side of the aisle for conduct where Eric Holder was untouched. Not to mention the full-blown HRT takedown of Stone (that just so happened to be live on CNN).

SFP, we don't agree on a lot, but your insistence lawfare does not exist is intellectually dishonest.
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
27663 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 6:58 am to
I get where you are coming from in terms of creating a settled or even a generally accepted clear definition. But, I would say that most of the posters, and probably even yourself see it as using the legal system to pursue things that otherwise should be inherently political.....or legislative.

As a society we have opted for gridlock at the federal level. For good or bad that is what we have dealt ourselves. As such, politically, consensus escapes us. Because we cannot come to consensus, both sides try to grasp for any advantage, sort of like trench warfare in WW I where we expend money and resources to great amounts to get a minimal advantage. Enter the use of of existing law as a surrogate for political and legislative action.

There's no agreed upon definition because it's mostly a reflexive thing. But generally the statutes used to engage in it have legitimacy and the accusations or indictments are grounded in a modicum of legitimacy as well. Example, Did Trump have Cohen pay hush money to Daniels (Clifford)? Yeah, probably. Have her sign an NDA? We have evidence of it. Is it on its face illegal? No. Was it done for political cover and insurance? Absolutely. Do politicians do this at least semi regularly? One would assume so. Could there be campaign finance violations.? Minimally, yes.

AHA!!! So there is a crime!!! Egregious corruption of the law! We are a nation of laws, not of men! We cannot let this stand.....lest the public finds out that so many in the political arena engage in this walking of a legal tightrope regularly. You saw it with Clinton, you saw it with Trump and Russia .

It's the new almost generally accepted way of expanding politics into the legal arena. If a person you really don't like is a big threat at the ballot box, you pull out all the stops to block him. Use the law to hinder your opponent at every turn.

It used to be that lawfare, if you want to call it that, to an extent was used to hinder policy or the enactment of new laws. Generally used for political gain. Hey I don't like a policy or new law, let's shop and see if we can find a sympathetic circuit like the Fifth or the Ninth and either delay it's implementation or overturn it.

This new way is troubling, and both sides use it. It is a political abuse of the legal system.


Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
99031 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:08 am to
quote:

Hey I don't like a policy or new law, let's shop and see if we can find a sympathetic circuit like the Fifth or the Ninth and either delay it's implementation or overturn it.


You don't see a difference between constitutional challenges and the bastardization of laws for politically targeted criminal prosecutions?

quote:

both sides try to grasp for any advantage


Please list the "lawfare" of the right...

There is no "both sides" here.

Other than Kyle Rittenhouse, BLM/Antifa suffered zero consequences for their 2020 rioting. Similarly, leftists that have OCCUPIED the Capitol routinely skirt prosecution. Yet, J6 "insurrectionists" languish in prison without trial, have received ridiculous sentences or are still being hunted down by the FBI to this day.

This is not a "both sides" issue. But, I suspect it is going to become one.
Posted by TDTOM
Member since Jan 2021
14712 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:09 am to
quote:

This is not a "both sides" issue. But, I suspect it is going to become one.



One can only hope.
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
27663 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:19 am to
I do see the problem and that is what I'm getting at. But Republicans are not innocent. Democrats just attempt to use it a lot more.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124115 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:27 am to
quote:

Is lawfare litigation illegal?
It certainly should be.

quote:

how can it be (legally) stopped?
U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney has the right idea.

Defendants "cannot be selected for prosecution because of their repugnant speech and beliefs over those who committed the same" offence.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:29 am to
quote:

Imagine if a MTG-like prosecutor was elected and began to charge her political opposition with various crimes based on novel interpretations of the statutes at hand.

The only case of Trump's this even applies to is the NY case.

The GA, DC, and Florida cases don't involve any novel theories.

This is also why the NY case is regarded as by far the weakest one.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:29 am to
quote:

Are you this meticulous when questioning the left that you used to be a part of?

Yes
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:29 am to
quote:

Of course something can be legitimate and still lawfare.

I do not think that will be universally accepted.

The running meme is that lawfare is not legitimate.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:31 am to
quote:

Lawfare is very easily defined as Malicious Prosecution (also known as malicious use of process)

See, Reaxl? His starting point is illegitimacy.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:32 am to
quote:

Ok who was charged by a DA and brought up on criminal charges?

so lawfare can only be criminal?

I don't think that will be universally accepted, especially since the NY assets case was just referenced as an example of lawfare.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:34 am to
quote:

Lawfare is the targeted application of asymmetric legal contrivances


What is an "asymmetric legal contrivance"?

quote:

Beria defined its application succinctly when he said “Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.”

Again, this denotes illegitimacy.

Posted by themunch
Earth. maybe
Member since Jan 2007
64719 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:35 am to
It goes without saying that "lawfare" is a newfound term that is thrown around with varying definitions


You left these out. How can I start to evaluate this without properly defining what it is. Like define woman. If you leave out the biological context and go on belief, you need to understand the belief. You need to understand the definition of lawfare and provide one.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:36 am to
quote:

SFP, we don't agree on a lot, but your insistence lawfare does not exist is intellectually dishonest.

There have been about 10 different definitions given in this thread.

I don't know which of the 10 I'm supposed to say exists.

Some focus on legitimacy, some focus on criminal, some focus on specific individuals, or an alleged political bias, or, even fuzzier terms like "corrupt judge/prosecutor" (ignoring the jury, I suppose, but I'm sure when pressed people will call them corrupt, too).

A malleable term can be anything or nothing.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124115 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:41 am to
quote:

The GA, DC, and Florida cases don't involve any novel theories.
Of course they do. The thesis that a sitting POTUS cannot exercise options under legal loopholes to challenge an election is absolutely "novel," and stupid. The idea that an ex-POTUS should be prosecuted by the DOJ for something "no reasonable prosecutor" would pursue is absolutely "novel," and dangerous.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:43 am to
quote:

But, I would say that most of the posters, and probably even yourself see it as using the legal system to pursue things that otherwise should be inherently political.....or legislative.

But a lot of these alleged lawfare scenarios are civil in nature.

quote:

It's the new almost generally accepted way of expanding politics into the legal arena.

But how new is this? One of the foundational cases in the canon of US precedent is Marbury v. Madison, which was this exact thing.

I mean this goes back to Rome. Julius Caesar only hung around Gaul so long to avoid this very same stuff.

quote:

It is a political abuse of the legal system.

This then goes into the "how can you fix it"?

Take the Rudy Giulliani defamation case. Generally accepted as lawfare. It's, at heart, a pretty straightforward defamation case. How do you fix it?

Giulliani admitted to the defamation, even, so then they peel back the layer and retreat to the "he couldn't afford to defend himself" layer. How do you fix that across all civil cases? I mean hell, Bob Menendez's wife is claiming she can't afford lawyers, too. Is that lawfare now?

It's just a meandering, malleable definition that changes for each situation, and then within the situation (the above Rudy layer peeling).
Posted by TDTOM
Member since Jan 2021
14712 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:43 am to
It is beautiful outside. Grab your wife and go take a walk.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:44 am to
quote:

It certainly should be.

How can you achieve this?

As a universal solution across criminal, civil, and administrative litigation.

quote:

U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney has the right idea.

Defendants "cannot be selected for prosecution because of their repugnant speech and beliefs over those who committed the same" offence.

So a whataboutism defense?

That's not going to work. BLM would EAT if that was the standard.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423157 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:46 am to
quote:

You left these out.


Read the next sentence, bub

quote:

So can we give a universally agreed-upon definition of "lawfare"?


quote:

How can I start to evaluate this without properly defining what it is. L

Again, the next sentences.



Posted by themunch
Earth. maybe
Member since Jan 2007
64719 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 8:47 am to
I have yet to see the universal definition in this thread and certainly not by you in the op. Thanks
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