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Non leftists that are Pro Palestinian
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:28 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:28 pm
Let me preface by saying I completely understand the Matt Walsh, Vivek, PBD, etc. non-intervention/isolationist stance of no American dollars or boots to the Middle East.
What i can’t understand is when otherwise astute political and social commentators parrot the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel. I don’t understand how anyone with a brain can so easily see through the leftist social justice BS when it comes to everything else, but then co-opt the oppressor vs oppressed viewpoint of the Middle East conflict.
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
I don’t think it’s antisemitism (aside from Owens, whom definitively skirts the line there). Is it simply contrarianism?
What i can’t understand is when otherwise astute political and social commentators parrot the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel. I don’t understand how anyone with a brain can so easily see through the leftist social justice BS when it comes to everything else, but then co-opt the oppressor vs oppressed viewpoint of the Middle East conflict.
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
I don’t think it’s antisemitism (aside from Owens, whom definitively skirts the line there). Is it simply contrarianism?
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Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:36 pm to 632627
quote:
Is it simply contrarianism?
I think quite a bit. I can argue this the other way, though. Why do people on the right, especially on this board, question EVERYTHING from MSM - except with respect to this subject? She's a total communist, but this is one thing Caitlin Johnstone beats on with respect to "rightists."
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here. Israel/Gaza is interesting because there is a split in how people think they are being lied to/presented with info/gaslit/whatever. Most of the right seems to think MSM is just regurgitating Hamas propaganda. The alt media guys think MSM is in the bag for Israel. It's not just the alt left like Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate, Chris Hedges, Michael Tracey, Greenwald, Dore, etc. It goes to former CIA guys like Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson, academics like Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer, the Duran (a popular international podcast), and the libertarian/anti-war type guys.
Matt Taibbi had been silent on most of this, but had a good pod about it. Much it is behind a paywall, but this gives you the flavor:
LINK
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 2:46 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:45 pm to 632627
I fall into this camp, with a couple of notable distinctions
1. I never use rhetoric about genocides, ethnic cleansing, or apartheid (though apartheid is absolutely a valid claim, I just don’t care).
2. I’m not pro Palestinian
I don’t really think the people you listed are necessarily “pro” Palestinian either, and it’s lazy to just throw that label around.
Contrarianism plays a part, sure. But here’s the deal as far as I’m concerned. Most of the stuff that gets parroted in the US about Israel is either a lie, or it’s sugar coated. I’m more concerned with this than pro Palestinian rhetoric because Israel has massive influence over our spending, foreign involvement, and even domestic policy. They are able to achieve this because vast swaths of the country buy every bit of their propaganda without questioning.
So I want to move away from giving them billions of dollars, and being fully expected to intervene in any serious conflict they are involved in. And I want domestic governors and Congress to stop creating ridiculous legislation surrounding this foreign country. None of this stops until the American public learn more about the truth of the darker side of their shenanigans.
If we achieved that sort of separation from them, I don’t care if they kill everyone in Gaza and the West Bank. They are welcome to do whatever they can handle on their own and more power to them. I am so sick of being tied to them though, and we get nothing out of this deal, absolutely nothing.
1. I never use rhetoric about genocides, ethnic cleansing, or apartheid (though apartheid is absolutely a valid claim, I just don’t care).
2. I’m not pro Palestinian
I don’t really think the people you listed are necessarily “pro” Palestinian either, and it’s lazy to just throw that label around.
Contrarianism plays a part, sure. But here’s the deal as far as I’m concerned. Most of the stuff that gets parroted in the US about Israel is either a lie, or it’s sugar coated. I’m more concerned with this than pro Palestinian rhetoric because Israel has massive influence over our spending, foreign involvement, and even domestic policy. They are able to achieve this because vast swaths of the country buy every bit of their propaganda without questioning.
So I want to move away from giving them billions of dollars, and being fully expected to intervene in any serious conflict they are involved in. And I want domestic governors and Congress to stop creating ridiculous legislation surrounding this foreign country. None of this stops until the American public learn more about the truth of the darker side of their shenanigans.
If we achieved that sort of separation from them, I don’t care if they kill everyone in Gaza and the West Bank. They are welcome to do whatever they can handle on their own and more power to them. I am so sick of being tied to them though, and we get nothing out of this deal, absolutely nothing.
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:47 pm to 632627
quote:
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
i listen to Rogan, Dore, and Smith pretty regularly. Smith being my favorite.
i usually am 100% on board with him for most of his takes. if there is a political opinion, i usually already agree with him or can be swayed.
i actually have the same criticisms of him that i do with Shapiro on the other side.
Shapiro says that we have given them numerous opportunities to have a state and they leave the table because Hamas doesn't want a state. You give them really shitty options and have had land grab after land grab since the 1940s. On top of all the civilians murdered.
Smith picks up what Shapiro leaves out and then also forget that Palestinians are stuck there because Egypt doesn't want them. Egypt doesn't want them because they supported Saddam in Kuwait (got kicked out.) Assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister after Jordan went to war with the PLO, then went to war with Lebanon,
in short, they're a shitty people who cause trouble everywhere they go.
good video on why nobody wants Palestine in 4 minutes
i think both sides are leaving out a whole lot.
Shapiro is rabidly pro-Israel, but waves away A LOT of Israel's wrong doings. I don't know that Smith is "pro-palestine" but he carries way too much water for them and waves away the fact that they launch rockets indiscriminately all the time.and have made themselves unwelcome in the entire middle east.
Israel is a-hole here, but spare me the plight of a people too stupid to stop killing themselves for their billionaire leaders living in luxury around the ME.
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:54 pm to 632627
So you don't have a problem with what Israel is doing you just don't like the words they are using to describe what Israel is doing?
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:08 pm to 632627
quote:
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
Do you think it has anything to do with them just not wanting to see helpless civilians killed by a government's military? Greenwald seems like a person who is against governmental power being used against civilians indiscriminately, whether it's law enforcement or the military.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:19 pm to 632627
I don't like the Palestinians. I don't like the Israelis. However, our unabashed support for Israel and their influence on our foreign policy has resulted in decades of foreign policy blunders in that area of the world, which has radicalized many Muslims to not just despise the Zionist state of Israel, but the United States of America as well. The Israelis are a 100 lb chain around our necks.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:24 pm to 632627
Perhaps it is justifiable genocide.
After all, we have justifiable homicide.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:33 pm to 632627
Because it’s genocide. And if Palestine had the means to genocide Israel, they would.
The irony is the people who’ve built a legacy around being genocided are genociding people they hate.
But let me be clear. I don’t have a team in the sand wars. It’s a 3000 year old war over magic dirt. I don’t want either side here in my country. I don’t want to send either side money. I’m tired of American blood and treasure being lost in sand people countries.
I don’t want dual citizenship Jews and Hamas sympathizers making legislation in the US.
They all need to go back.
The irony is the people who’ve built a legacy around being genocided are genociding people they hate.
But let me be clear. I don’t have a team in the sand wars. It’s a 3000 year old war over magic dirt. I don’t want either side here in my country. I don’t want to send either side money. I’m tired of American blood and treasure being lost in sand people countries.
I don’t want dual citizenship Jews and Hamas sympathizers making legislation in the US.
They all need to go back.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:45 pm to 632627
I wish I could remember the source in order to give a link / citation, but someone pointed out that a high up Israeli official (maybe equivalent of Sec Def?) has every Israeli name that's been killed by Hamas or related activities in the past 20 or 25 years or so. I was shocked at how small the number is compared to what I expected. I hate to say that because it seems like minimizing death - but I expected it to be so much higher. And then that number was compared to civilian deaths just since Oct 7th, in Gaza - and those deaths were about 10x more, maybe a higher multiple than that.
When those types of numbers are put out there, you're going to see the genocide label.
You can't un-see videos like the Shani Louk stuff. Just like you can't un-see people jumping from the World Trade Center towers on 911. Israel's anger has never been questioned. Their tactics have been questioned, however, and that's fair and reasonable. Combine this with various doctrines like 'mowing the grass' and you are assured of getting the genocide discussions going.
When those types of numbers are put out there, you're going to see the genocide label.
You can't un-see videos like the Shani Louk stuff. Just like you can't un-see people jumping from the World Trade Center towers on 911. Israel's anger has never been questioned. Their tactics have been questioned, however, and that's fair and reasonable. Combine this with various doctrines like 'mowing the grass' and you are assured of getting the genocide discussions going.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 7:58 pm to 632627
quote:
What i can’t understand is when otherwise astute political and social commentators parrot the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel.
Israel is a Jewish ethno nationalist state, and they treat anyone who's not Jewish badly. It's a pretty ugly place.
The goal is to slowly annex all of the Palestinian land, and the people they can't expel, will end up in little bantustans, with limited movement rights. These places, small towns, will be prisons for them.
Posted on 5/18/24 at 12:06 am to 632627
quote:
What i can’t understand is when otherwise astute political and social commentators parrot the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel. I don’t understand how anyone with a brain can so easily see through the leftist social justice BS when it comes to everything else, but then co-opt the oppressor vs oppressed viewpoint of the Middle East conflict.
What amazes me is how a lot of people I know who are vehemently antiabortion seem to cheer on isreal dropping 2k lb bombs on children's heads at the American tax payers expense.
Posted on 5/18/24 at 3:29 am to 632627
Why does Israel get to go "total war" against their enemies, yet our boys are fricked by rules of engagement? THATS the double standard I don't agree with. It isn't about Israel. It's the fact that our boys were told to behave and die for the rules or there would be consequences, and apparently there aren't if you are Israel.
Posted on 5/18/24 at 8:44 am to 632627
quote:
the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel.
It is laughable to say that Israel is practicing genocide. Absolutely ridiculous.
Israel does not practice apartheid, since many Arabs have full rights of citizenship in Israel.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Israel is practicing ethnic cleansing. Anyone who says otherwise is either blind to what’s happening, a propagandist, or willfully ignorant. What Israel has been doing since 1947 is textbook ethnic cleansing. It would have been impossible to have a Democratic Jewish nation had they not run off the Palestinians.
Posted on 5/18/24 at 9:10 am to 632627
quote:
I don’t understand how anyone with a brain can so easily see through the leftist social justice BS when it comes to everything else, but then co-opt the oppressor vs oppressed viewpoint of the Middle East conflict.
Reasonable people can disagree with Israel’s present tactics.
Posted on 5/18/24 at 10:51 am to 632627
In 2006 Palestinian territories held elections. Hamas won a plurality of votes (44 percent to 41 percent) and a majority of seats (74 to 45). Hamas broke the peace, murdering opposition, and took total control of the Gaza Strip. Palestinians are accountable for voting terrorists into power. And have done nothing to stop them for an entire generation, as Hamas advocated for war time and time again.
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