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re: Help me determine some Objective Truth
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:37 am to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:37 am to Squirrelmeister
I don't see any discrepancy in the examples of testing God you present. The context makes it clear. If the subject is moving away from God, there is a risk of punishment. If the subject is moving towards God (which requires humility and faith... which is sometimes hard in worldly circumstances), they will be rewarded.
To understand this, let's consider this idea via analogy... Consider for a moment if you had a relationship with a girlfriend.
1) If you remain "just dating" for a year or two, you aren't really testing the relationship. You're in a comfortable / stable zone at that point.
2) If, from the initial context of the stability of dating for a year or two, you make new friends and are suddenly going out 4 times a week and ignoring her / taking her for granted, you are testing your relationship with her (you're testing her), and it should not be surprising if she objects to being suddenly ignored. And there may be repercussions in your relationship with her.
*** Most of the tests you list fall into this category. There is an implied warning that moving away from God moves you away from Grace and puts you in increased danger from being subjected to the downside of God's laws.
3) If, from the initial context of the stability of happily dating for a year or two, you decide to get serious and propose to your girlfriend, you are again testing her. This time, though, the test requires an act of faith on your part as you attempt to move towards her (not away); and if she is faithful and loves you, this test will be met with happiness and a stronger union.
*** The Malachi scripture you quote heavily implies that if you put your faith in God (move towards God, NOT away), you will be rewarded. This is unambiguous (even if it can be hard to see IRL).
*** In the Kings scripture, when Elijah calls for an answer from God, he has already explicity defined that he is a servant of God and done what God has asked of him. He is leaning into God here, not away from him. He has already surrendered to God and is following orders to the best of his understanding. He is NOT standing apart from God and demanding justification from God from egoic desire. The scripture reads clearly this way with Elijah basically saying, "OK, God, I did everything you asked of me, and it's in your hands now to reveal the Truth of it." So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.
To understand this, let's consider this idea via analogy... Consider for a moment if you had a relationship with a girlfriend.
1) If you remain "just dating" for a year or two, you aren't really testing the relationship. You're in a comfortable / stable zone at that point.
2) If, from the initial context of the stability of dating for a year or two, you make new friends and are suddenly going out 4 times a week and ignoring her / taking her for granted, you are testing your relationship with her (you're testing her), and it should not be surprising if she objects to being suddenly ignored. And there may be repercussions in your relationship with her.
*** Most of the tests you list fall into this category. There is an implied warning that moving away from God moves you away from Grace and puts you in increased danger from being subjected to the downside of God's laws.
3) If, from the initial context of the stability of happily dating for a year or two, you decide to get serious and propose to your girlfriend, you are again testing her. This time, though, the test requires an act of faith on your part as you attempt to move towards her (not away); and if she is faithful and loves you, this test will be met with happiness and a stronger union.
*** The Malachi scripture you quote heavily implies that if you put your faith in God (move towards God, NOT away), you will be rewarded. This is unambiguous (even if it can be hard to see IRL).
*** In the Kings scripture, when Elijah calls for an answer from God, he has already explicity defined that he is a servant of God and done what God has asked of him. He is leaning into God here, not away from him. He has already surrendered to God and is following orders to the best of his understanding. He is NOT standing apart from God and demanding justification from God from egoic desire. The scripture reads clearly this way with Elijah basically saying, "OK, God, I did everything you asked of me, and it's in your hands now to reveal the Truth of it." So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.
1
Posted on 2/27/24 at 12:54 pm to epbart
quote:
The context makes it clear. If the subject is moving away from God, there is a risk of punishment. If the subject is moving towards God (which requires humility and faith... which is sometimes hard in worldly circumstances), they will be rewarded.
It’s not clear to me. In fact I can’t find that anywhere in the scripture. That may be your interpretation but mine is different. When the Israelites were getting punished, they had just recently put their faith in Yahweh but kept pissing him off by asking for water and provisions. I don’t see that as “moving away from God” when they put their faith in God to ask him for things.
quote:
The Malachi scripture you quote heavily implies that if you put your faith in God (move towards God, NOT away), you will be rewarded. This is unambiguous (even if it can be hard to see IRL).
So with that in mind, Elijah is “moving towards God” in his test and is rewarded? I just don’t see it. He’s putting God on the spot asking him for stuff which to me is the same thing that the Israelites did during the exodus.
quote:
So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.
He tested Adonai by putting on the spot. If Adonai doesn’t come down and set the wet chopped up bull on fire, Elijah would have effectively declared to all the people watching that Yahweh does not exist.
If you read Luke 4, to me it specifically denounces what Elijah did. Jesus says not to put God to the test:
quote:
9And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, 10for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ 11and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” 12And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Either that or he was just scared of falling and that God wouldn’t catch him. Was Jesus “moving away from God” as you say?
What do you think of Elijah murdering all those other prophets. He wasn’t in a war. In the story, Yahweh didn’t tell Elijah to murder them. All those prophets of Baal had just bowed down to Adonai and declared him the real God. Was Elijah breaking the commandment “thou shall not murder”? I get that murder is fine and great when the LORD commands the murder, but per the story God didn’t command it.
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