It certainly highlights the fact that people love talking points and cannot think critically anymore.

Its them who make their sexual preference their entire life. Their entire identity is wrapped in their sexuality.

This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 11:54 am

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Posted by SoggyBottomBaw

Live Free Or Die

Member since Nov 2022

454 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:53 am to Squirrelmeister

No Dead Sea Scroll references, no OP credibility...

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Posted by RolltidePA

North Carolina

Member since Dec 2010

3489 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 12:10 pm to Squirrelmeister

quote:
Does the LORD approve of being tested or not? If ya’ll could help me with some Objective Truth on the matter I’d appreciate it.

There's no such thing as objective truth. Every scenario is an observable event and the recounting will intrinsically be subjective.

Beyond that your core question and background context has two logical fallacies embedded in it, Black or White and Composition / Division. How you've posed the question and embedded your definition of Objective Truth is a bad faith question. You're simply either setting up your future argument or are looking to create a scenario where any given answer you would deem unresolvable.

As they say, if you want the truth, go to the source. Find the lord and seek his wisdom for yourself.

This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 12:12 pm

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Posted by Prodigal Son

Member since May 2023

696 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 12:26 pm to Squirrelmeister

quote:
Does the LORD approve of being tested or not?

I don’t think it’s about whether He approves or not. It’s about under what conditions He approves or not.

It seems to me, that in the first examples, God is telling them not to test His wrath by justice - because He doesn’t want to have to punish them. In the latter examples, He wants them to test His faithfulness to His own word.

Similar to how I warn my children of the consequences (I take away privileges and such) of their willful disobedience to my instruction (which exists for their benefit), and ask that they don’t make me have to discipline them- as I take no pleasure in it. This is in contrast to how I encourage them to accomplish the goals that I have set for them, and to receive the rewards that I have promised them.

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Posted by Squirrelmeister

Member since Nov 2021

1827 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 12:54 pm to epbart

quote:
The context makes it clear. If the subject is moving away from God, there is a risk of punishment. If the subject is moving towards God (which requires humility and faith... which is sometimes hard in worldly circumstances), they will be rewarded.

It’s not clear to me. In fact I can’t find that anywhere in the scripture. That may be your interpretation but mine is different. When the Israelites were getting punished, they had just recently put their faith in Yahweh but kept pissing him off by asking for water and provisions. I don’t see that as “moving away from God” when they put their faith in God to ask him for things.

quote:
The Malachi scripture you quote heavily implies that if you put your faith in God (move towards God, NOT away), you will be rewarded. This is unambiguous (even if it can be hard to see IRL).

So with that in mind, Elijah is “moving towards God” in his test and is rewarded? I just don’t see it. He’s putting God on the spot asking him for stuff which to me is the same thing that the Israelites did during the exodus.

quote:
So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.

He tested Adonai by putting on the spot. If Adonai doesn’t come down and set the wet chopped up bull on fire, Elijah would have effectively declared to all the people watching that Yahweh does not exist.

If you read Luke 4, to me it specifically denounces what Elijah did. Jesus says not to put God to the test:

quote:
9And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, 10for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ 11and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” 12And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Either that or he was just scared of falling and that God wouldn’t catch him. Was Jesus “moving away from God” as you say?

What do you think of Elijah murdering all those other prophets. He wasn’t in a war. In the story, Yahweh didn’t tell Elijah to murder them. All those prophets of Baal had just bowed down to Adonai and declared him the real God. Was Elijah breaking the commandment “thou shall not murder”? I get that murder is fine and great when the LORD commands the murder, but per the story God didn’t command it.

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Posted by Larry_Hotdogs

Texas

Member since Jun 2019

1348 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 1:08 pm to Squirrelmeister

quote:
I re-read 1 Kings 18 and can’t find in there where the LORD requests the test.

You missed “seemingly”

The objective truth, per my previous post, is pursuit of communion with the Lord.

Throughout the Bible, there are hints and expressions that God wants to give us His gifts, but does so in a way that requires humanity to prepare itself, deeply understand the consequences, and use it in a way that glorifies God. In the case your OP mentions, the ancients desire the knowledge, but are unprepared for the consequences of having and living with that gift.

In the Garden of Eden, Adam was instructed to not eat the fruit because “you will surely die.” The serpent told Adam he would be like God. In all the time before this, in perfect communion with God, Adam was being instructed and prepared for the gift of the knowledge- even being allowed to name all living things- but he took the fruit anyway, and then blamed Eve and the serpent. In the end, both God and the serpent were right- he died (literally and figuratively) and he became like God in knowledge

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Posted by Squirrelmeister

Member since Nov 2021

1827 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 1:17 pm to Prodigal Son

quote:
I don’t think it’s about whether He approves or not. It’s about under what conditions He approves or not.

Are those conditions stated as part of scripture?

quote:
It seems to me, that in the first examples, God is telling them not to test His wrath by justice - because He doesn’t want to have to punish them. In the latter examples, He wants them to test His faithfulness to His own word.

Ok, in the first examples, would you agree that Deuteronomy 6 is talking about that wrath and punishment thing you mentioned? Would you then agree that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6 in Mark 4 and Luke 4? Would you then see that Jesus is sort of equating not testing God under any of those circumstances, as surely you believe Jesus was faithful to God’s word, no? You are saying he wants them to test his faithfulness to his own word but Jesus seems to reject that.

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Posted by Squirrelmeister

Member since Nov 2021

1827 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 1:32 pm to Godfather1

quote:
Like any parent, he punishes rebellious children.

What about punishing innocent babies for the sins of their parents? Like in 2 Samuel 12. God allows Bathsheba’s and David’s baby to be born, but then makes the baby sick, torturing the poor child for 7 days, and then kills the baby, specifically as punishment for David stealing Uriah’s wife and sending him to be purposely killed.

Really think about what you wrote.

quote:
Like any parent, he punishes rebellious children

No, God doesn’t punish children like a parent would. He unjustly punishes children for the sins of their fathers. He commands rebellious children to be stoned to death. God’s punishment is unlike the punishment dealt by any parent I know.

Deuteronomy 21:

quote:
18“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

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Posted by epbart

new york city

Member since Mar 2005

2928 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 2:54 pm to Squirrelmeister

quote:
It’s not clear to me. In fact I can’t find that anywhere in the scripture. That may be your interpretation but mine is different.

I see some in this thread suggesting you're just being a combative arse and will not argue in good faith. Since you replied to my response, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

1) First things first... and if you genuinely want to understand, I insist you answer this question honestly... Do you understand the girlfriend analogy I previously presented: a) if, from a stable dating state, you begin to ignore her and take her for granted, you are testing the relationship in a negative way and there probably will be repercussions in the relationship eventually, and b) if, from a stable dating state, you propose to your girlfriend, that commitment to marriage can also be a positively oriented test and an act of faith in which you have to humble yourself and commit to the possibility of a higher union with her.

Do you understand this or is anything unclear?

I think it's pretty straight-forward, and if you apply this simple logic of state change towards or away from a girlfriend to a relationship with God, it parallels just fine. It explains every instance you provide of "don't test God" as facing repercussions from moving away from God.

It also clearly explains the Malachi scripture you posted. The context of that part of Malachi is that the people were not fully committing to God (in their tithes). And if you are cheating in small things like tithes, you can't really say you're committed to God above worldly things, can you? And he's clearly saying if they have faith and commit to him, they'll find their rewards multiplied. There is nothing ambiguous about this. "Test" is tangential here. It's not testing limits before punishment as the previous examples. He's saying, give yourself over to me in full (including in the small things like tithes), and see just how well you're rewarded (read: test the limits of my generosity if you're truly faithful and pure in all things; NOT test me (God) as that is an act of egoism / arrogance).

Moving on from Malachi to the Elijah part, you quote my previous bit on Malachi:

quote:
10Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

and you follow with the following question and commentary:

quote:
So with that in mind, Elijah is “moving towards God” in his test and is rewarded? I just don’t see it. He’s putting God on the spot asking him for stuff which to me is the same thing that the Israelites did during the exodus.

No, you're completely missing the point. Elijah is not now moving towards God with expecation of reward. Re-read both the scripture you originally posted and my previous answer:

quote:
36And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. 37Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.” 38Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

*** In the Kings scripture, when Elijah calls for an answer from God, he has already explicity defined that he is a servant of God and done what God has asked of him. He is leaning into God here, not away from him. He has already surrendered to God and is following orders to the best of his understanding. He is NOT standing apart from God and demanding justification from God from egoic desire. The scripture reads clearly this way with Elijah basically saying, "OK, God, I did everything you asked of me, and it's in your hands now to reveal the Truth of it." So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.

Here is the chronology of what happens in that scripture and what it means:

1) "Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel,"

Elijah declares the station of the God as God. This is the opposite of challenging God or testing him.

2) "Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word."

Elijah, having acknowledged God to be God (and NOT tested him), now relates his station as being a servant to God. This is a statement of humility that suggests Elijah knows his place (the opposite of testing God). And he elaborates that he has OBEYED God's commands and "done all these things at your word." *** OBEYING is a hugely important and is completely the opposite of testing God.

3) After everything is done according to God's will and Elijah's ability, only now does Elijah turn to God and say, " 37Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.”

Again, there is no test of God. He, in fact, repeats his recognition of God being God, and the answer he is asking for appears to be that God now accept the prepared offering so that others might know he's God. In no way does Elijah challenge God to justify himself for Elijah's sake. He is just finishing a ritual as God ordered and now putting the ball in God's court to respond according to God's will. That is it. You're straining beyond any semblance of logic or reason to suggest otherwise.

Further, this sequence of Elijah's statements in the passage:
1) recognize God
2) recognize your place as a servant or sinner
3) ask / pray for something (asking for some form of answer)

is highly consistent with most prayers.

When you say the Lord's prayer, you start by acknowledging "Our Father, who art in heaven", before asking God to provide daily bread and protection from being led into sin (which implicitly acknowledges your own frailty).

When you say the Jesus prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." ... you start with acknowledging God/Jesus, and you ask for mercy (implicitly stating your weakness as a sinner)

Asking for mercy or daily bread is not testing God, and neither is Elijah obeying God, then upon completing his instructions, turning to God to say... okay, God, I did my part, and now I turn to you that you might answer and let the people know you are God.

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Posted by epbart

new york city

Member since Mar 2005

2928 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 3:05 pm to Squirrelmeister

Going back to your opening in this most recent reply:

quote:
That may be your interpretation but mine is different. When the Israelites were getting punished, they had just recently put their faith in Yahweh but kept pissing him off by asking for water and provisions. I don’t see that as “moving away from God” when they put their faith in God to ask him for things.

Not sure if you're intentionally misrepresenting the story or not, but your portrayal of the Israelites here is the source of your misunderstanding. And it is your misunderstanding, not mine. Asking for water and provisions (your daily bread) is not problematic. Whining at Moses and God everyday along the lines of...

... ugh, this is hard... is this what we left Egypt for... did God /you lead us out in the desert just to die... etc....

... is highly problematic. It shows spiritual weakness, a lack of faith, a lack of humility, a lack of vision, a lack of trust, following a series of miracles they were witness to. They were weak and they were testing God inappropriately. Period. Had you included this part in your analysis, I suspect you'd have been smart enough to figure this out; that the problem wasn't merely that they were hungry & thirsty.

There's so many people now who say they might believe in God if they were given a sign or proof. The Israelites in the desert suggest otherwise. Here are a group of people who supposedly witnessed miracle after miracle, gained their freedom, then when the going got hard, they spiritually wilted as much as most people do... and fell right back into sin. That won't cut it and that's why God tests us.

I have answered your questions at length and definitively. If you read it with sincerity, you'll see your errors and you'll see that I'm right in this case. I'm curious if you're man enough to admit you're wrong. I'll check in later and maybe even bump this or reply to you in other threads just to make sure you have the chance to see it since it's anchored.

For my part, I enjoyed exercising my mind in this direction and writing this rebuttal out despite the length and time to do so. So thank you for helping me refine my arguments.

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Posted by Prodigal Son

Member since May 2023

696 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 4:46 pm to Squirrelmeister

quote:
Are those conditions stated as part of scripture?

Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have all scripture committed to memory. But it seems like a logical conclusion to draw based on the overarching narrative of the Bible.

quote:
Ok, in the first examples, would you agree that Deuteronomy 6 is talking about that wrath and punishment thing you mentioned?

Not necessarily. While it harkens back to times of punishment for disobedience, such as Egyptian slavery, and wandering the wilderness for 40 years; 6:16 is actually referencing Exodus 17:2-7, where the Israelites, not far removed from seeing the miracles that God performed in Egypt, began to immediately doubt His existence because they were thirsty.

God then commanded Moses to strike the rock, and then water flowed from it. The “testing” referred to here, is that mentality that immediately doubts God, when our own terms and conditions are not instantly met. 6:16 is telling us not to be like that.

quote:
Would you then agree that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6 in Mark 4 and Luke 4?

Matthew 4, but yes.

quote:
Would you then see that Jesus is sort of equating not testing God under any of those circumstances

There are a couple of glaring differences here. First , Satan tells Jesus to “throw yourself down.” Big difference between jumping (intentional) and falling (unintentional). That’s two different kinds of tests. Second, God is not commanding Jesus to jump- Satan is. What Satan is doing here, is similar to what the Israelites did at Massah, which is doubting God, and demanding that God perform some miracle in order to prove Himself. Which is why Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16.

God has done all the proving that is necessary for us to make a free will decision to believe in Him and trust in Him. No amount of miracles is going to override your free will, and force you to accept Him. Jesus said Luke 16:31 (ESV): 31 , ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”

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Posted by epbart

new york city

Member since Mar 2005

2928 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 7:01 pm to Prodigal Son

quote:
6:16 is actually referencing Exodus 17:2-7, where the Israelites, not far removed from seeing the miracles that God performed in Egypt, began to immediately doubt His existence because they were thirsty.

Really good post overall and this quoted part is consistent with what my thoughts are. Wanting water (and provisions as Squirrel put it) is not necessarily wrong, but these needs and appetites are used here to show how the Israelites broke down and turned away from God due to the desires of the flesh... as happens to nearly everyone in this world who faces one temptation or another.

And your discussion of Jesus covers that angle quite well, imho.

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Posted by Prodigal Son

Member since May 2023

696 posts

Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:08 pm to epbart

Thank you. I found your posts very insightful, and biblically sound as well. As you could probably surmise, SM is not searching for objective truth- as one cannot search for that which he believes he already possesses. He is an evangelist of atheism. That said, I encourage you to engage him whenever possible, as this is our duty according to 1 Peter 3:15. I enjoy my conversations with him. He is intelligent, and has a good sense of humor. He sometimes poses questions that require me to study the scripture more deeply, and from which I emerge with stronger faith and a deeper understanding. I appreciate that about him., though I know that’s not his intention. He is the modern day embodiment of Genesis 50:20.

I also encourage you to add him to your prayer list.