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Year 1 Zion vs Year 5 Zion
Posted on 12/27/23 at 10:47 pm
Posted on 12/27/23 at 10:47 pm
Everyone seems fit to bury Willie, but this team is built assuming Zion is a superstar. Apart from an amazing back tat and chest tat, year 5 Zion is a worse player than out of shape, oft injured and covid interrupted rookie Zion.
Year 1 Zion
GP 24
MP 27.8
FG% .583
eFG% .592
FT% .640
REB 6.3
Ast 2.1
TOV 2.5
PTS 22.5
Year 5 Zion
GP 25
MP 30.8
FG% .575
eFG% .579
FT% .640
REB 6.1
Ast 4.4
TOV 2.6
PTS 22.3
Year 5 Zion should be averaging 36 minutes a game and close to 30 points. That’s the player we built this team for.
Year 1 Zion
GP 24
MP 27.8
FG% .583
eFG% .592
FT% .640
REB 6.3
Ast 2.1
TOV 2.5
PTS 22.5
Year 5 Zion
GP 25
MP 30.8
FG% .575
eFG% .579
FT% .640
REB 6.1
Ast 4.4
TOV 2.6
PTS 22.3
Year 5 Zion should be averaging 36 minutes a game and close to 30 points. That’s the player we built this team for.
Posted on 12/27/23 at 10:50 pm to ned nederlander
I’m not really defending him here because he has issues. But realistically, how many nba seasons wheres hes played at least more than 50 games has he had from year 1 to 5? Its hard to make progress when you’re not actually on the court- hence it delays his on court progress.
Posted on 12/27/23 at 11:15 pm to Pels_Yaz
This is the big red flag for me … he was healthy going into the offseason and has remained healthy to this point yet his body and performance has been worse .
The only thing in the way of his progress his him period.
The only thing in the way of his progress his him period.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 12:49 am to ned nederlander
its a collective failure all around
Posted on 12/28/23 at 2:31 am to ned nederlander
He’s an incredibly talented player who has zero desire to be great. It is what it is. We’ve all tried to stupidly rationalize his shortcomings the last few years but the dude just doesn’t have what it takes to be a top guy.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 8:27 am to unctiger4
If Zion was on Memphis or Dallas what would you think about him and his future?
That's where I am right now.
As a Pels fan, I see last December and can imagine a world where he becomes a top 5 player.
If he did that on basically any other team, I'd think it was a flash in the pan.
If you just look at historical comparisons, there is no one at his weight/height that has maintained elite athleticism.
Unless you truly believe he's this magical unicorn that can defy 50 years of data, then maybe you try to move off him before the wheels fall off.
That's where I am right now.
As a Pels fan, I see last December and can imagine a world where he becomes a top 5 player.
If he did that on basically any other team, I'd think it was a flash in the pan.
If you just look at historical comparisons, there is no one at his weight/height that has maintained elite athleticism.
Unless you truly believe he's this magical unicorn that can defy 50 years of data, then maybe you try to move off him before the wheels fall off.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:09 am to ned nederlander
And yet he still leads the team in PER...
Shitty coaching often leads to uninspired play
Shitty coaching often leads to uninspired play
Posted on 12/28/23 at 9:12 am to ned nederlander
The administration’s focus was to build a team to compliment Zion. Yet, also, Willie Green’s philosophy has been good defense and an uptempo offense with quick ball movement. Zion doesn’t play good defense, his movement is plodding, he is prone to turn overs and also is iffy with free throws. Does this team really play better with Zion in the line up?
Posted on 12/28/23 at 11:13 am to ned nederlander
I take no exceptions with you saying Zion isn't the dude he should be, that much is obvious. But...
Then when he returned, this season, Willie now has him relegated to the #2 option, clearly behind BI.
We, mostly Zion, has wasted the 1st 4 years of his career for us to figure out just how good he truly is. Now he's finally healthy this season, and the Pels/Willie are wasting yet another year to find out what he can do as the #1 option.
This should be a sink or swim year, build literally everything around Zion, make Zion the guy on court just like Luka/Jokic/Haliburton, all those dudes who have the ball in their hands at all times. Yes, Zion is out of shape, that doesn't matter to me as it relates to what I'm saying. Make him the guy any way. Let him prove that he can or cannot be that #1 dude like he was showing he could do last season.
I'd prefer this team be 14-17 while having tried it with everything revolving around Zion and just knowing it failed and he's not good enough. But instead Zion is still not playing well but we also don't know if making him the #1 option that has the ball in his hands wouldn't change that. It did change that last season and that's when he was at his best. Then we never tried it again.
quote:The last time we saw Zion play basketball before this season, he was playing at a legit MVP caliber and winning games for this team.
Everyone seems fit to bury Willie, but this team is built assuming Zion is a superstar.
Then when he returned, this season, Willie now has him relegated to the #2 option, clearly behind BI.
We, mostly Zion, has wasted the 1st 4 years of his career for us to figure out just how good he truly is. Now he's finally healthy this season, and the Pels/Willie are wasting yet another year to find out what he can do as the #1 option.
This should be a sink or swim year, build literally everything around Zion, make Zion the guy on court just like Luka/Jokic/Haliburton, all those dudes who have the ball in their hands at all times. Yes, Zion is out of shape, that doesn't matter to me as it relates to what I'm saying. Make him the guy any way. Let him prove that he can or cannot be that #1 dude like he was showing he could do last season.
I'd prefer this team be 14-17 while having tried it with everything revolving around Zion and just knowing it failed and he's not good enough. But instead Zion is still not playing well but we also don't know if making him the #1 option that has the ball in his hands wouldn't change that. It did change that last season and that's when he was at his best. Then we never tried it again.
quote:Bingo. Won't really repeat my long post, but yes, fat and out of shape or not, play him 36 minutes, put the ball in his hands at every point, and if he fails, so be it.
Year 5 Zion should be averaging 36 minutes a game and close to 30 points. That’s the player we built this team for.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 11:15 am to Macintosh504
quote:This
its a collective failure all around
I know it's been my focus a lot lately to point out, but too many posters do the "it's 100%" so and so so's fault.
Nope, it's a collective failure from Zion, to Willie, to Griff, to whoever else we need to blame. They all get their fair share here.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 11:17 am to SCLSUMuddogs
quote:Many greats have played with shitty coaching. They were still great.
Shitty coaching often leads to uninspired play
If a coach makes Zion sulk and not try, that's a major red flag that tells you Zion doesn't have the mindset to truly be great.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 11:20 am to Tigresstiger
quote:But then Willie doesn't play Zion with the guys that actually compliment him, nor does he play Zion in the role as the #1 option for this team. That's why it's a failure across the board, a collective massive failure to this point.
The administration’s focus was to build a team to compliment Zion
quote:This year, no. The previous 4 years, yes by a long shot.
Does this team really play better with Zion in the line up?
Posted on 12/28/23 at 12:18 pm to shel311
quote:
Many greats have played with shitty coaching. They were still great.
I don't disagree, but MJ didn't win shite until Phil. Coaching matters
Posted on 12/28/23 at 12:23 pm to SCLSUMuddogs
I wish they would just give him the keys right off the bat like SVG did and let him sink or swing as the guy. Too many mixed messages and too much hot potatoing with the go-to option from game to game.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 2:39 pm to ned nederlander
quote:There is no way on this team and the offense that we play that we are going to have anyone average 30 points a game.
Year 5 Zion should be averaging 36 minutes a game and close to 30 points. That’s the player we built this team for.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 2:52 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
I wish they would just give him the keys right off the bat like SVG did and let him sink or swing as the guy. Too many mixed messages and too much hot potatoing with the go-to option from game to game.
I 100% agree and I've been a zion hater all year. He's behind Ingram and CJ in FGAs yet he's supposed to be our number one option and those guys are supposed to play off of him.
He takes 15 shots a game, that's 54th in the league. Why is he not taking 20 shots?
What other number 1 option gets the 3rd most shots on their team?
Posted on 12/28/23 at 2:53 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Its hard to make progress when you’re not actually on the court- hence it delays his on court progress.
The greats - Magic, Bird, MJ, Hakeem, Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, etc. They all made noticeable improvements in the offseason from one year to the next thru their first 5-6 years in the league.
Magic added a 3, Bird got faster and became a better passer and back to basket moves as well as his D, MJ added jumper and then a 3 and then his baseline fade move, etc.
Zion has not added a thing to his game and has lost elements that he had entering the league. No dawg in him.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 2:59 pm to tibebecolston
I think you completely missed my point. All those guys never missed a whole seasons or big chunks of a season as they progressed in their career. When you miss games like Zion does(which is a lot of time his fault) it completely sets you back in regards to timelines. In total Zion so far in his career has played only one season with 50 or more games. So saying he hasn’t improved from year 1 to year 5- yeah he’s hasn’t but hes also only played one full season. Again I’m not saying its not Zion’s fault but its also silly expecting progression in his game when the guy more than half the time isn’t on the court.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 3:08 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
There is no way on this team and the offense that we play that we are going to have anyone average 30 points a game.
He averaged 27 under stan.
He averaged 26 last year, and 29.8 points last December when his minutes got up to 35 a game during the only month of his career he was close to “in game shape.”
That’s kind of the point. If Zion committed himself to basketball he is playing 35 minutes and absolutely averaging near 30 points a game. The rest of this roster isn’t near good enough to hold back an elite scorer from dictating the offense. CJ/Ingram and the rest ride shotgun to a committed Zion.
But Zion hasn’t stepped into that role so we are left with a team that lacks a clear on the court hierarchy.
Posted on 12/28/23 at 4:51 pm to shel311
I guess the choice is this: we had the path of giving Zion the tools that allowed hm to have success staying in the paint and not be double teamed. So that was achieved by increasing the 3-point shooters. But then there is Willie Green’s vision. It seems as though the surrounding players are more in tune with Willie Green’s vision ( which I think leads to success) than Zion’s one dimensional, plodding play style.
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