re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

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No. Get it right. It's America's fault that we don't force Ukraine to give up their sovereignty. Even though they want to keep defending themselves.

Our corrupt MIC is forcing the Ukrainians into a hopeless slaughter when they should just accept their fate of becoming the next Belarus. Which is in their best interest.

We don't know what's best for them. They don't know what's best for them.

Putin knows what's best for them.

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Entertaining rant

But let's address it more seriously.
Referreing to the Ukrainians, you sarcastically quipped, "They don't know what's best for them."
On the surface your derision seems well placed. It really does. After all, they must know what's best for them. Right? Doesn't everyone?

E,g., Presumably the same premise is applicable to the US?
We must know what's best for us, right?

Yet, with bipartisan effort, we are $34T in debt, our southern border is wide open, and we're more interested in teaching our kids transgender concepts than we are in teaching them economics and home finance.
Why?
It's a leadership thing resulting in misplaced public perception.
Now that doesn't mean our next regimes or next generations will be as clueless as our past ones. But it does allow legitimate questioning as to whether we actually do know what's best for us at the moment.

Ukraine is no different.

As a centuries old precept, Ukraine fell traditionally within the Russian sphere. Geographically, it is "Belgium of the east," a crossroads borderland of traversable plains used by massive European armies to attack Russia over the centuries. (As an aside, that is not similarly true of Finland, or the Baltics).

Russia instinctively yearns to maintain those 'borderlands' within its sphere as a buffer against future western incursion. By hook or crook, or savagery, or sword, the Russian psyche has always been focused on maintaining "the borderlands" as a buffer.

Meanwhile, 20yrs ago, the US initiated efforts to inject itself into Ukraine, and wrench it from the Russian orbit. If you honestly believe that effort had an iota of Ukrainian interests in mind, you need to stop the trips to the spiked punchbowl. Those efforts, as with NATO expansion, were brazenly designed to isolate what we misperceived as our greatest national threat (This at the same time we rolled out an economic red carpet for China). It was absurd policy. It was callous to Ukraine. We knew the effort would be off putting to Russia. Perhaps we knew even better than Ukraine did.

Ukraine was drawn to the allure though. Western riches! Join the EU! NATO! In no time, Kyiv would become the Paris of the east. So began an expanding game of Ukrainian footsie with Europe and the US.

But here's the cold reality: In 2010, when Yanukovych was elected, Ukrainian trade looked like this:
Exports: Russian Federation $13,432M (26%), Turkey $3,027M (6%), Italy $2,412M (5%), Belarus $1,899M (4%), Poland $1,787M (3%).
Imports: Russian Federation $22,198M (37%), China $4,700M (8%), Germany $4,603M (8%), Poland $2,789M (5%), Belarus $2,568M (4%)

Those numbers had shifted slightly away from Russia (Exp 24%, Imp 30%) at the time of the western aligned Euromaidan coup d'etat in 2014 against Russian interests, yet Russia still dwarfed all of Ukraine's EU trading partners combined.

So in terms of Ukraine knowing what was best for them during the coup, did they really? From a military stance, they lost Crimea, and the eastern oblasts (Yanukovych loyalist areas) revolted in response. Might it have not been better to tell Soros and western-backed Euromaidan activists to F/O and wait a few months until the 2015 election?

From a purely economic standpoint, was Ukraine in a position to shirk Russia as they did? No. Looking at the trade numbers, it wasn't even a close call.

Was it a smart diplomatic decision then or later?
Russians are nasty, self-interested, and traditionally autocratic. They are led by a cold, ruthless, calculating man who was increasingly enraged at western interference in the Russia sphere. When he saw Ukraine overthrow a Russian-friendly president, then eventually elect a man whose greatest accomplishment was playing piano with his dick and dancing in stilettos, Putin dangerously perceived it as a sign of alignment with the enemy and national weakness.

After Zelenskyy's election, Putin and he met. Putin was unimpressed. His predator-prey perceptions of undisciplined Ukrainian weakness deepened.

When Zelenskyy got drawn into NATO conversations with Biden, it was spark to kindling. Putin assumed he would quickly bitchslap some sense back into Ukraine with sweeping military force.

Russia's invasion was as it's characterized here. It was horrible. It was not militarily provoked. It was a brazen breach of Ukrainian sovereignty, etc. Putin thought it would be over so quickly, it wouldn't matter. He miscalculated. Now we have a protracted war instead. In terms of knowing what was best, Russia undoubtedly would like a do-over.

But regarding Ukraine, had Ukraine known then what they do now, would they also have made different decisions?
I think it's fair to say they would.

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You could say many of the same things about Poland and Russia.
Poland's main trade partner is Germany (Imp 21%, Exp 29%). Russia is comparatively diminutive at 6%/3%.

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I said many of the same things, not exactly the same things. Russia had conquered parts of Poland off and on for centuries.

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Sovereign nations have the right to decide what’s best for themselves.

Not really. E.g., That is the premise Russia used for invasion

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Then there’s nothing really to discuss. You believe might makes right.

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As a centuries old precept, Ukraine fell traditionally within the Russian sphere.

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Kiev and Moscow were both part of the Kievan Rus who were Scandinavian rulers of the Slaves. Kiev was the dominant ruling part up until their cousins in Moscow cut a deal with the invading Mongols that betrayed Kiev.

https://www.rbth.com/history/332313-mongol-invasion-was-reason-russia-formed

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Putin doesn't want NATO on his doorstep. If NATO and Ukraine stop flirting, this thing could be resolved.

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So he went about the exact course of action that would ensure NATO is on his doorstep. Seems a bit myopic on his part.

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As a centuries old precept, Ukraine fell traditionally within the Russian sphere. Geographically, it is "Belgium of the east," a crossroads borderland of traversable plains used by massive European armies to attack Russia over the centuries. (As an aside, that is not similarly true of Finland, or the Baltics).

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The world doesn’t operate by spheres of influence anymore.

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Russia instinctively yearns to maintain those 'borderlands' within its sphere as a buffer against future western incursion. By hook or crook, or savagery, or sword, the Russian psyche has always been focused on maintaining "the borderlands" as a buffer.

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There is ‘instinct’ here or even a need for using land as a buffer. It is so supremely idiotic to base FP decisions on that notion. It is a specific, outdated, myopic foreign policy goal and should be resisted by everyone. We’ve found another better way around that, through economic integration, which has done wonders for the geopolitics of continental Europe.

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Ukraine was drawn to the allure though. Western riches! Join the EU! NATO! In no time, Kyiv would become the Paris of the east. So began an expanding game of Ukrainian footsie with Europe and the US.

But here's the cold reality: In 2010, when Yanukovych was elected, Ukrainian trade looked like this: Exports: Russian Federation $13,432M (26%), Turkey $3,027M (6%), Italy $2,412M (5%), Belarus $1,899M (4%), Poland $1,787M (3%). Imports: Russian Federation $22,198M (37%), China $4,700M (8%), Germany $4,603M (8%), Poland $2,789M (5%), Belarus $2,568M (4%)

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This is so nonsensical, it beggars belief. What happened to the GDP of countries like Poland after joining the EU?

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After Zelenskyy's election, Putin and he met. Putin was unimpressed. His predator-prey perceptions of undisciplined Ukrainian weakness deepened.

When Zelenskyy got drawn into NATO conversations with Biden, it was spark to kindling. Putin assumed he would quickly bitchslap some sense back into Ukraine with sweeping military force.

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This isn’t close to being an accurate rendition of events.

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But regarding Ukraine, had Ukraine known then what they do now, would they also have made different decisions?

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From all indications, they would have attempted to join NATO quicker. Because there isn’t a net benefit for Ukrainians themselves for remaining in Russia’s orbit.

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Therefore you are elevating their sovereignty

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Goodness!
No read the post again, then read my comments about the Russian invasion.

The poster I was responding to made an unfortunately blanket statement about sovereignty. His statement is actually the position the Russians hold. It is not my position.

Sovereign nations have the right to decide what’s best for themselves ... UNLESS what they judge as best for them negatively impacts what is good for another.

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Goodness!
No read the post again, then read my comments about the Russian invasion.

The poster I was responding to made an unfortunately blanket statement about sovereignty. His statement is actually the position the Russians hold. It is not my position.

Sovereign nations have the right to decide what’s best for themselves ... UNLESS what they judge as best for them negatively impacts what is good for another.

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I see crawfish season has started early.

How hard would you cry if comrade Putin kicked the bucket? You sure do suck his cock plenty enough. How anyone can like a man that is pure evil with a Napoleon complex always being the smallest guy in the room is beyond me. One man’s heartbeat is all that stands between war killing thousands on both sides or peace. One man. Hopefully that heart stops beating very soon.

Did you honestly just say I support Biden or any freak leftist fricks? No, sorry but I’m a Trump supporter. You can say whatever you like about that because coming from a douchebag like you means nothing. Go back to the Saints forum and jack off to what uniforms they are wearing.