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Tolkien book nerds- how did Galadriel bring down Dol Guldur?

Posted on 2/2/24 at 11:06 am
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20436 posts
Posted on 2/2/24 at 11:06 am
I'm putting this on the book thread for now, because I think it's more relevant to Tolkien's written lore, than to what Jackson made on film.

It's listed in the appendixes of LOTR that Celeborn led the armies of Lothlorien to Dol Guldur and won, and then Galadriel cast down the fortress. I think the normal interpretation was "elf magic", as such. What did she actually do?

I looked into it somewhat, and am wondering on something.

Silmarillion, and Beren and Luthien. Sauron in the First Age took the original Minas Tirith, and turned it into his own fortress of terror. Luthien ended up destroying it, but as you dig into the details, it's a bit different than you'd suspect.

Sauron- used to be Mairon, in the service of Aule. Aule was the Vala most responsible for building things, Mairon was very high in his crew. He was involved fundamentally in building lots of the physical parts of Middle Earth.

Luthien didn't actually beat Sauron, Huan had him by the throat. Luthien forced him to surrender control and the "keys" to the fortress. She then tore down the fortress, and laid bare the dungeons etc. So it didn't crumble and collapse, or it would have crushed Beren in the dungeon. Instead, it seems she basically deconstructed it in a way that would not harm those inside.
quote:

In the Lay of Leithian, Luthien commands Sauron "the spell that boundeth stone to stone thou tell, / and speak the words of opening."


This sorta seems like matter manipulation, which is technically something Sauron, in Aule's service, would have been capable of. "The keys" might have been knowledge of how to do such an act, to some structure.

What's interesting is that Luthien did return to Doriath awhile afterwards, where her mother Melian the Maia was also mentoring/befriending Galadriel. It's very possible that Luthien passed her knowledge to Melian and Galadriel (basically a Song of Power to do such a thing).

Far as I recall, after the Last Alliance, they tore down Barad Dur, but could not destroy the foundations. I don't remember if Galadriel was there, I don't think so. Those foundations were tied to the One Ring still existing (and thus Sauron's will and power still at play), but again, I don't know if Galadriel came and tried to do the same thing Luthien did.

The fact that Galadriel, not Celeborn, was the one that tore Dol Guldur down, suggests that knowledge WAS passed along, and Galadriel knew how to do it. And thus, it wasn't "elf magic", it was Sauron's (Aule's) magic.

Posted by Sus-Scrofa
Member since Feb 2013
8173 posts
Posted on 2/5/24 at 6:38 am to
I consider myself a Tolkien fan and a nerd, but you sir have raised the bar.

It would take like 40 hours of research to respond to your question!
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
17933 posts
Posted on 2/5/24 at 9:23 am to
I honestly don't read it at all the way that you do. Remember that, by this time, Sauron has been defeated and the One Ring has been destroyed. That means that the power of Nenya, Galadriel's ring, would also be gone or diminished. (Side note: I've never been sure whether the destruction of the One Ring caused the power of The Three to disappear immediately, or whether that power gradually faded, though I lean toward the latter interpretation.)

In any case, though, I simply take a non-magical view of the passage you suggest. Celeborn led the army of elves from Lorien, and then Galadriel directed the efforts of the "combat engineers" in the destruction of the fortress.

Saying that Galadriel threw down the fortress, in my opinion, is analogous to saying that Napoleon captured Mantua in 1797 -- he didn't take the city all by himself.


A related question that puzzles me, though, is how the White Council drove Sauron from Dol Guldur in TA2941 and didn't go ahead and finish destroying the fortress right then. I suppose that they mistakenly thought that the departure of Sauron (the Necromancer) was enough such that the evil in the area would gradually disappear. That's certainly the impression given in The Hobbit.
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